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Author Topic:   Where is the Good Non American Music???
joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 106 of 172 (381551)
01-31-2007 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by kuresu
01-31-2007 4:05 PM


Re: just wondering
seriously, prophex, you need help. music isn't about being tortured. music is about fun. music is about enjoying yourself. sometimes, it's about spreading a message.

If you're dancing.

I know it's not about being tortured neanderthalis.

relax, enjoy life a little bit. as they say, "let your hair hang down".

lol

I don't get it haha. I tell you guys about some individuals who lived amazing lives - how you should all live, and I get this,... haha


This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by kuresu, posted 01-31-2007 4:05 PM kuresu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by kuresu, posted 01-31-2007 4:53 PM joshua221 has responded

  
joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 107 of 172 (381553)
01-31-2007 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Dan Carroll
01-31-2007 4:06 PM


Re: just wondering
Gotta tell ya, this isn't wildly different, in terms of content, from the original post.

I don't like cursing though.

Off the top of my head, anyone who's ever written a fantastic comedy? Which would include anyone from early Woody Allen to William Shakespeare.

Unfamiliar with Allen, but my brother loves his first movies when he directed them..

He said that he wasn't at all messing around when he made them.

I have read Shakespeare and he is exactly like the Beatles are to music. Exactly.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Dan Carroll, posted 01-31-2007 4:06 PM Dan Carroll has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Dan Carroll, posted 01-31-2007 5:06 PM joshua221 has responded

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 767 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 108 of 172 (381554)
01-31-2007 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by joshua221
01-31-2007 4:41 PM


Re: just wondering
first off, its neanderthalensis.

you don't get us. that's why you don't understand our reaction to what you wrote.

Life isn't just about examining life. It's not all about philosophy, contemplation. Plato is ancient. Barely relavent today. But I bet even he knew that you should have fun in life.

That's just part of who we are. I think quite a bit. But I know how to have fun. do you not "let your hair hang down"?

And I wouldn't consider someone who stabbed himself in the chest and was psychotic to have lived an amazing life.


Question. Always Question.

" . . .and some nights I just pray to the god of sex and drugs and rock'n'roll"--meatloaf

Want to help give back to the world community? Did you know that your computer can help? Join the newest TeamEvC Climate Modelling to help improve climate predictions for a better tomorrow.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by joshua221, posted 01-31-2007 4:41 PM joshua221 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by joshua221, posted 01-31-2007 5:02 PM kuresu has not yet responded

    
joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 109 of 172 (381564)
01-31-2007 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by kuresu
01-31-2007 4:53 PM


Re: just wondering
first off, its neanderthalensis.

hahahahahaaa ha ha ha

you don't get us. that's why you don't understand our reaction to what you wrote.

Who's "us"?

Life isn't just about examining life. It's not all about philosophy, contemplation. Plato is ancient. Barely relavent today. But I bet even he knew that you should have fun in life.

Man that makes me feel so bad, damn man..

That's just part of who we are. I think quite a bit. But I know how to have fun. do you not "let your hair hang down"?

And I wouldn't consider someone who stabbed himself in the chest and was psychotic to have lived an amazing life.

Man..

Edited by prophex, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by kuresu, posted 01-31-2007 4:53 PM kuresu has not yet responded

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 110 of 172 (381566)
01-31-2007 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by joshua221
01-31-2007 4:47 PM


Re: just wondering
He said that he wasn't at all messing around when he made them.

If you can watch Sleeper and think Woody Allen wasn't fucking around and having a good time, then there's not a whole lot to say.

This isn't to say he didn't get serious at that time as well. (ie, Annie Hall.) But it's not until much later in his career that the top priority in his movies stopped being to make the audience have a good, fierce laugh.

I have read Shakespeare and he is exactly like the Beatles are to music. Exactly.

I know your intent here is to insult Shakespeare, but honestly, you're just inadvertently praising the Beatles.

William Shakespeare wrote plays that resonate with audiences across centuries. No matter how the plays are staged, how they're acted, or who's watching them, the characters manage to belt the audience in the face every single time. This is, without exaggerating, a feat has not been matched by anyone in any medium.*

If your criteria for "not an idiot" doesn't include Shakespeare, then you're operating on some Bizarro-world definition of idiot, that has no meaning to anyone but you.

---

*Although Eliott Smith, had he not lived a life so amazing that it prompted him to stab himself in the chest to escape it, would probably say the Beatles resonate across decades in the same way. We'll see how well they manage to hold up in 2400AD before saying for sure, though.


"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert
This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by joshua221, posted 01-31-2007 4:47 PM joshua221 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by joshua221, posted 01-31-2007 5:14 PM Dan Carroll has responded

  
joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 111 of 172 (381571)
01-31-2007 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Dan Carroll
01-31-2007 5:06 PM


Re: just wondering
William Shakespeare wrote plays that resonate with audiences across centuries. No matter how the plays are staged, how they're acted, or who's watching them, the characters manage to belt the audience in the face every single time. This is, without exaggerating, a feat has not been matched by anyone in any medium.*

If your criteria for "not an idiot" doesn't include Shakespeare, then you're operating on some Bizarro-world definition of idiot, that has no meaning to anyone but you.

Just think the Beatles - average joes with average works with average ideas and average lives.

What I mean to say is that Shakespeare was an average joe just like the Beatles... I think they knew it.

Not to degrade their efforts and work, sure it is good. But they are not what the true artists are made of, and that is so apparent.

Average joe may be too harsh of a term... They were just normal people who did not understand many things about life, whereas Smith and Johnston were far different.

Edited by prophex, : No reason given.

Edited by prophex, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Dan Carroll, posted 01-31-2007 5:06 PM Dan Carroll has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Dan Carroll, posted 01-31-2007 10:14 PM joshua221 has responded
 Message 135 by nator, posted 02-04-2007 11:35 PM joshua221 has responded

  
joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 112 of 172 (381613)
01-31-2007 10:06 PM


I edited my reply above to make it a better response.
I would like to thank all of you for your great discussion, I think we all have learned a lot about what makes a fulfilling life, and who we can look to in regards to living a fruitful life - musical and human brilliance. "True Artists".

Unfortunately with the latest responses I was saddened a great deal at the complete lack of reason and thought that was used.

Kuresu argued that life was about having fun and "letting your hair down". Not only that but he denounced Plato as ancient and irrelevant.

I don't know, I don't even think he believes that.

I think this discussion was a fruitful one although it began with a completely silly and foolish (knowingly) opening topic.

Thanks a lot.


Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by kuresu, posted 01-31-2007 10:25 PM joshua221 has responded

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 113 of 172 (381614)
01-31-2007 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by joshua221
01-31-2007 5:14 PM


Re: just wondering
What I mean to say is that Shakespeare was an average joe just like the Beatles... I think they knew it.

Not to degrade their efforts and work, sure it is good. But they are not what the true artists are made of, and that is so apparent.

Well, I'm sure John Lennon and William Shakespeare appreciate your magnanimity.

But perhaps you could, for the sake of argument, give an example of the "things about life" not understood by either one?


"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert
This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by joshua221, posted 01-31-2007 5:14 PM joshua221 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by joshua221, posted 02-01-2007 6:56 PM Dan Carroll has responded

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 767 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 114 of 172 (381617)
01-31-2007 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by joshua221
01-31-2007 10:06 PM


Re: I edited my reply above to make it a better response.
Kuresu argued that life was about having fun and "letting your hair down". Not only that but he denounced Plato as ancient and irrelevant.

mind reading what I actually wrote?

I said life is not just about contemplation--you have to let your hair hang down at least everyonce in a while.

I also said Plato is near irrelavant. And he is ancient.

get it straight.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by joshua221, posted 01-31-2007 10:06 PM joshua221 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by joshua221, posted 02-01-2007 10:54 PM kuresu has responded

    
joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 115 of 172 (381713)
02-01-2007 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Dan Carroll
01-31-2007 10:14 PM


Re: just wondering
But perhaps you could, for the sake of argument, give an example of the "things about life" not understood by either one?

It's hard to describe but I'll try.

Living a good life is a life that is examined - used to find out what is true. (This is a very broad and difficult concept) This sort of life in some cases involves accomplishing something great and having something to show for it, the men that you have talked of were not men who had anything to do with truth or an examined life. (This was largely stolen from Plato.) I personally don't like the rigidity of Plato's famous quotation but for our purposes it describes well enough what we must strive for. And that is not only answers to these questions but being able to accomplish something remarkable with our time.

Men like those whom I have mentioned have left things behind that we can all see and recognize as beautiful and true. We can see that they led a life that was good.

Read these lyrics from "The Story of An Artist" by Daniel Johnston and watch this video of the song. http://youtube.com/watch?v=RyHuD7WI32o

Listen up and I'll tell a story
About an artist growing old
Some would try for fame and glory
Others aren't so bold
Everyone, and friends and family
Saying, "Hey! Get a job!"
"Why do you only do that only?
Why are you so odd?
We don't really like what you do.
We don't think anyone ever will.
It's a problem that you have,
And this problem's made you ill."
Listen up and I'll tell a story
About an artist growing old
Some would try for fame and glory
Others aren't so bold
The artist walks alone
Someone says behind his back,
"He's got his gall to call himself that!
He doesn't even know where he's at!"
The artist walks among the flowers
Appreciating the sun
He does this all his waking hours
But is it really so wrong?
They sit in front of their TV
Saying, "Hey! This is fun!"
And they laugh at the artist
Saying, "He doesn't know how to have fun."
The best things in life are truly free
Singing birds and laughing bees
"You've got me wrong", says he.
"The sun don't shine in your TV"
Listen up and I'll tell a story
About an artist growing old
Some would try for fame and glory
Others aren't so bold
Everyone, and friends and family
Saying, "Hey! Get a job!"
"Why do you only do that only?
Why are you so odd?
We don't really like what you do.
We don't think anyone ever will.
It's a problem that you have,
And this problem's made you ill."
Listen up and I'll tell a story
About an artist growing old.
Some would try for fame and glory
Others just like to watch the world.

You of course do not have to go out and be an artist to accomplish something great, but this is what they did, and what I plan to do. While Johnston was separated from individuals like Plato, he was similar in that he understood how one should live and accomplished something monumental.

The Beatles and Shakespeare may have been very intelligent, funny, and good people, but they were no artists. They did something with their lives and should be respected for that but do not think that they were at all near the level of a man such as Daniel Johnston or Elliott Smith.

I hope you recognize what I mean now. Thanks for the good question.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Dan Carroll, posted 01-31-2007 10:14 PM Dan Carroll has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Dan Carroll, posted 02-02-2007 10:32 AM joshua221 has responded

  
joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 116 of 172 (381797)
02-01-2007 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by kuresu
01-31-2007 10:25 PM


Re: I edited my reply above to make it a better response.
mind reading what I actually wrote?

I said life is not just about contemplation--you have to let your hair hang down at least everyonce in a while.

I also said Plato is near irrelavant. And he is ancient.

get it straight.

Why is he irrelevant? Have you read his work? Plan to?

Sorry for the misinterpretation, but I do think I was almost spot on.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by kuresu, posted 01-31-2007 10:25 PM kuresu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by kuresu, posted 02-01-2007 11:13 PM joshua221 has responded

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 767 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 117 of 172 (381801)
02-01-2007 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by joshua221
02-01-2007 10:54 PM


Re: I edited my reply above to make it a better response.
it's off topic, but for what its worth:

I've read a chunk of The Republic. I'm very familiar with the Cave analogy. Also, his dual world is well known.

About the only thing left he has that's relevant is the Cave analogy. In the Republic, he argues for what is essentially a monarchy--he doesn't trust democracies. His dualistic world is also irrelevant. There are other dualisms, more modern (such as Descarte's body and soul). Even aristotle rejected Plato's dualism. The other view, for lack of a better word, is monism. Science is not dualistic, especially when it comes to plato's dualism--how do you test that which does not exist in this world?

The only things that are dualistic are religions with a heaven idea, really.

Besides, half of what Plato wrote (if not more) was taken from Socrates.


Question. Always Question.

" . . .and some nights I just pray to the god of sex and drugs and rock'n'roll"--meatloaf

Want to help give back to the world community? Did you know that your computer can help? Join the newest TeamEvC Climate Modelling to help improve climate predictions for a better tomorrow.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by joshua221, posted 02-01-2007 10:54 PM joshua221 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by joshua221, posted 02-02-2007 10:41 AM kuresu has not yet responded

    
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 118 of 172 (381876)
02-02-2007 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by joshua221
02-01-2007 6:56 PM


Re: just wondering
This sort of life in some cases involves accomplishing something great and having something to show for it, the men that you have talked of were not men who had anything to do with truth or an examined life.

Okay... to quote another great musician, "you're talking a lot, but you're not saying anything."

You say they don't have anything to do with truth, but you gotta tighten that up a bit. I've already gone over the way in which Shakespeare created characters that strike a deep chord of empathy with audiences across several centuries... if that has nothing to do with truth, what does? If someone can so thoroughly understand the human mind that he strikes universal themes, that continue their relevance in a world so far removed in time as to be unrecognizable... again, an accomplishment no other human has yet matched... how can he possibly be said to have lived an unexamined life?

What is this "truth" you want artists to reach?

Read these lyrics from "The Story of An Artist" by Daniel Johnston

It's kinda trite, actually. He could have shortened that up to "nobody understands me, stay out of my room!", and not really lost anything. I'd rather listen to a Smiths song; they do the same thing, but have a little more self-awareness about the silliness of what they're doing.

I think this will be the only time anyone has ever said this, but it seems like Morrissey lived a bit more of an examined life than this fella.

It's one thing to say, "I'm an artist, I'm an artist!" over and over again, as Johnston does in those lyrics. It's another to actually go create something that has an emotionally resonant effect, like Shakespeare or the Beatles. Personally, I'd consider the latter the more admirable work.


"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert
This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by joshua221, posted 02-01-2007 6:56 PM joshua221 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by joshua221, posted 02-02-2007 10:52 AM Dan Carroll has responded

  
joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 119 of 172 (381880)
02-02-2007 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by kuresu
02-01-2007 11:13 PM


Re: I edited my reply above to make it a better response.
If you have an interest in truth, re-read it. What you have said is blatantly untrue.

Edited by prophex, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by kuresu, posted 02-01-2007 11:13 PM kuresu has not yet responded

  
joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 120 of 172 (381885)
02-02-2007 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by Dan Carroll
02-02-2007 10:32 AM


Re: just wondering
You say they don't have anything to do with truth, but you gotta tighten that up a bit. I've already gone over the way in which Shakespeare created characters that strike a deep chord of empathy with audiences across several centuries... if that has nothing to do with truth, what does? If someone can so thoroughly understand the human mind that he strikes universal themes, that continue their relevance in a world so far removed in time as to be unrecognizable... again, an accomplishment no other human has yet matched... how can he possibly be said to have lived an unexamined life?

I acknowledge that Shakespeare was a very effective playwright. But being about to "strike a deep chord of empathy with audiences across several centuries" has nothing to do with what I am referring to here. I am talking about something much higher and more important than that, read down. Answer me this.

What separates Harper Lee from Jean Paul Sartre?
What separates F. Scott Fitzgerald from Kierkegaard?
What separates Ernest Hemingway from Plato?

This is exactly the kind of thing I am referring to. What is discussed in these famous English writers novels and short stories has NOTHING to do with truth.

It's one thing to say, "I'm an artist, I'm an artist!" over and over again, as Johnston does in those lyrics. It's another to actually go create something that has an emotionally resonant effect, like Shakespeare or the Beatles. Personally, I'd consider the latter the more admirable work.

I guess Plato was right when he talked about those who would work and those who would become Philosopher Kings.

Edited by prophex, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Dan Carroll, posted 02-02-2007 10:32 AM Dan Carroll has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Dan Carroll, posted 02-02-2007 11:10 AM joshua221 has responded

  
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