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Author Topic:   Mike's ego trip
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6050 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 4 of 82 (188151)
02-24-2005 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Wounded King
02-24-2005 11:33 AM


irrefutable Mike
The title of this thread is appropriate, considering that Mike began calling himself "Irrefutable Mike" in the thread containing his "award-winning" post.
Mike definitely fixated on "post 60", even while the discussion was still active. I'm not quite sure why, since it was partly repetition of earlier comments he had made. The points he presented in post 60 were refuted before and after he posted them based on evidence or logic.
Mike's response: obviously we hadn't read or understood "post 60". It couldn't be that his argument was flawed, since he had already crowned himself "Irrefutable Mike".
Perhaps Mike needs to realize that even if his argument was pure genius and irrefutable, if his post does not intelligibly pass on that information, then it is obviously not POTM-worthy.
He also argues that non-evos do not get nominated for POTM; a simply perusal of the POTM threads, this month included, shows that argument to be refuted as well...

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 Message 1 by Wounded King, posted 02-24-2005 11:33 AM Wounded King has not replied

  
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6050 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 27 of 82 (188478)
02-25-2005 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by mike the wiz
02-24-2005 7:35 PM


Mike the Wiz-hat (sorry, couldn't help myself...)
What amazes me about you Pinky, is how much you insist that I am "refuted" or that "he was refuted", or that my position was "falsified".
I was not the only one to refute your logic or your claims - there was a half-a-dozen others in the fray. Aximilli (sp?) countered your posts with some very level-headed explanations towards the end of the thread, perhaps even POTM-worthy.
Percy, this wasn't a particularly evo versus creo thread in all honesty. It was about accepting the blatant reality that humans are a bit different from animals. Even a "bit" please, pretty please?
I think this shows how delusional your view of the discussion was - your argument was that humans were "uniquely different", not a "bit different". This is particularly frustrating at this point since I said at least a dozen times in the thread in question that humans were quite different from all other species.
Early on you in the discussion you locked on to a human quality that you called "obvious", "invisible", and that made humans "uniquely different". When this quality as you presented it was demonstrated to exist in other animals, you continued to pound away at defending it.
I think other, more specific qualities such as religion/spirituality, or grammar/written language, are more defensible as "unique" to humans, and I told you so in the thread.
I also quite enjoy the Rockhound's quality of "using tools to make tools". It is something I am going to think about.
My point to all this is that I never claimed to have "refuted" the fact that humans may be uniquely different. I simply feel that I, and others, refuted the claim that only humans use reason and technology to exceed their "natural" capabilities/morphology.
Your use of repetitious, ambiguous claims did not further this argument once refuted; and if it was indeed not your argument, then your (continued) repetitious, ambiguous posts lead to misinterpretation of your argument, and thus are not worthy of POTM.
try and understand message #60.
If a dozen or more people read the message, and all misunderstand it, then perhaps you should consider that it is the content of the post, rather than the mindset of the readers, that is leading to the misunderstand.
(By the way, though firmly entrenched in "naturalistic fantasy land," I've never been nominated for POTM, and I'm not crying about it...)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by mike the wiz, posted 02-24-2005 7:35 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by mike the wiz, posted 02-25-2005 11:17 AM pink sasquatch has replied

  
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6050 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 30 of 82 (188514)
02-25-2005 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by mike the wiz
02-25-2005 11:17 AM


Mike's arguments in the dimension of time
I simply feel that I, and others, refuted the claim that only humans use reason and technology to exceed their "natural" capabilities/morphology.
That's your strawman version of my argument. My position is [A]. That only humans have artificially created morphological traits they haven't got(physical attributes).. And THAT is how we are uniquely different. I argue our ability.
Mike, you are being a bit silly here. "Artificially created morphological traits" is a new form of your argument first brought up in this thread. To say I was arguing a strawman in the previous thread because I wasn't arguing agains a version of your argument that you hadn't come up with yet is ridiculous.
And I ask, what is the specific difference between "artificially created morphological traits", and my supposed strawman version, "using reason and technology to exceed natural capabilities/morphology."
I have told you many times what my argument means. It is nothing to do with technology making us different. To continue to strawman when I have clarified my specific position (message #23) precedingly in this very thread is to be dishonest.
Such ass-hattery. You are faulting my comments about the original thread because they don't pertain to First, this is a thread about the nature of the argument in another thread, and not the argument itself (in fact you yourself stated that earlier and refused to comment on Rockhound's input).
Your new, anything-but-clarified version of your concept should be entered into the original thread.
And as I believe jar stated earlier, "artificially created morphological traits" is quite unclear. I read it as, for example, "genetic engineering to give humans wings", which I am quite sure is not what you mean.
If a dozen or or more people read your posts and all don't nominate you for POTM, then perhaps you should consider it is the content of your posts.
I do. I never said otherwise...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by mike the wiz, posted 02-25-2005 11:17 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6050 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 38 of 82 (188724)
02-26-2005 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by mike the wiz
02-26-2005 11:16 AM


the crux of the disagreement
Hey Mike - I've paraphrased your statement a bit to make it more general (it was focused on flight); hopefully it maintains your intent:
Find an organism that does NOT have a morphological trait (an ability rendered from physical make-up, such as breathing under water or flying, a necessity of physical make-up)...
Has the organism produced(remember the definition for artificial?) -- has the organism PRODUCED [an ability] (which is a natural and physical ability)? .
Now tick whether the millions of organisms have produced an ability...despite not having the natural endowment...
Mike, you have been shown by multiple examples that animals have done what you describe. You haven't clarified why any of the examples given in the original thread don't fit your above criteria:
- Chimps use hammer and anvil stones to open nuts that they cannot open with their natural morphology.
- Apes and some birds use sticks to collect insects that their natural morphology does not allow them to collect.
- Some birds collect ornaments to attract mates that their natural morphology is not sufficient to attract.
- Field ants keep aphids as livestock to produce food they cannot produce with their natural morphology.
- Beavers build dams to create shelter and feeding grounds that they would not have access to based on natural morphology.
- Countless animals build hives/burrows/colonies/etc to provide environmental shelter not granted by their natural morphology.
Perhaps you could directly specify the difference (rather than using ambiguous terms like "invisible ability", citing lay dictionary definitions, or simply giving examples of human technology such as flight).
I think this would go a long way to resolving the misunderstanding.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by mike the wiz, posted 02-26-2005 11:16 AM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by ohnhai, posted 02-27-2005 7:22 AM pink sasquatch has not replied

  
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6050 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 49 of 82 (188921)
02-27-2005 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by mike the wiz
02-26-2005 6:03 PM


yur hed splodin, myn to
You're the first to have falsified my statement according to the parameters I stated. I am assuming everyone else was being wilfully obtuse or you're just the first one to understand me.
Mike - are you serious?
You haven't responded to the list in message #38 of this thread - do none of those examples (brought up before) falsify your statement?
What is the specific difference between the spider example and the examples that I and others have given?
I really am trying to understand your logic here - perhaps you could explain?
Thanks...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by mike the wiz, posted 02-26-2005 6:03 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6050 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 58 of 82 (189149)
02-28-2005 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by custard
02-27-2005 11:01 PM


research, not tricks...
Sorry, my BS detector just went off big time. No criticism of you, Ohnai, but is there any link to the data? Animal behaviorists are right up there with Parapsychologists when it comes to 'interpreting' their own data.
To add to Ohnai's links above;
FB de Waal has done a lot of work on cooperation in capuchins, and he is definitely not an anthropomorphism-prone animal behaviorist of the type you criticize. "de Waal FB" put into http://www.pubmed.org will give you plenty of interesting abstracts. I'll list a few interesting refs below, but to waylay some of your specific concerns:
I have to wonder what kind of reward the monkeys get from their researchers if they do the 'experiment' (read 'routine') correctly.
The researchers are not training these monkeys to do 'tricks'. The only reward is the shared food reward that they work to get.
Does the monkey share 'about' 50% of the nuts EVERY time? Or just once in a while. Or just on that program?... I also have to wonder how many times 'rock monkey' ended up throwing his feces at 'nut monkey' out of frustration when 'nut monkey' ate all the goods.
Statistical analyses are applied to the research like any other - if non-cooperative feces-throwing confounded results, they would not be significant, and thus not publishable. In many papers certain groups (age, sex) excel at a task while others fail, and the failings of those groups are reported.
Ideally I'd like to see how many times the experiment was run, how much help the monkeys had 'learning' to cooperate, how frequently cooperation and sharing occurred, etc.
The monkeys are not taught to cooperate - they are often naive to the experimental conditions, or have simply been shown how to manipulate a situation to get the food (but not shown how to cooperate). Check some of the sources below for specifics - the one Ohnai mentioned is not among them, by the way...
It may also ease your mind to realize that cooperation and sharing is part of natural social interactions in wild monkeys and apes. The degree of sharing is proportional to degree of relation and labor put toward getting the food.
Nature. 2003 Sep 18;425(6955):297-9.
Monkeys reject unequal pay.
Brosnan SF, De Waal FB.
During the evolution of cooperation it may have become critical for individuals to compare their own efforts and pay-offs with those of others. Negative reactions may occur when expectations are violated. One theory proposes that aversion to inequity can explain human cooperation within the bounds of the rational choice model, and may in fact be more inclusive than previous explanations. Although there exists substantial cultural variation in its particulars, this 'sense of fairness' is probably a human universal that has been shown to prevail in a wide variety of circumstances. However, we are not the only cooperative animals, hence inequity aversion may not be uniquely human. Many highly cooperative nonhuman species seem guided by a set of expectations about the outcome of cooperation and the division of resources. Here we demonstrate that a nonhuman primate, the brown capuchin monkey (Cebus apella), responds negatively to unequal reward distribution in exchanges with a human experimenter. Monkeys refused to participate if they witnessed a conspecific obtain a more attractive reward for equal effort, an effect amplified if the partner received such a reward without any effort at all. These reactions support an early evolutionary origin of inequity aversion.
PMID: 13679918
Anim Behav. 2000 Oct;60(4):523-529.
Capuchins do cooperate: the advantage of an intuitive task.
Mendres KA, de Waal FB
We used a cooperative pulling task to examine proximate aspects of cooperation in captive brown capuchin monkeys, Cebus apella. Specifically, our goal was to determine whether capuchins can learn the contingency between their partner's participation in a task and its successful completion. We examined whether the monkeys visually monitored their partners and adjusted pulling behaviour according to their partner's presence. Results on five same-sex pairs of adults indicate that (1) elimination of visual contact between partners significantly decreased success, (2) subjects glanced at their partners significantly more in cooperative tests than in control tests in which no partner-assistance was needed, and (3) they pulled at significantly higher rates when their partner was present rather than absent. Therefore, in contrast to a previous report by Chalmeau et al. (1997, Animal Behaviour, 54, 1215-1225), cooperating capuchins do seem able to take the role of their partner into account. However, the type of task used may be an important factor affecting the level of coordination achieved. Copyright 2000 The Association for the Study of Animal Behaviour.
PMID: 11032655
Anim Behav. 2000 Aug;60(2):253-261.
Attitudinal reciprocity in food sharing among brown capuchin monkeys.
de Waal FB.
Capuchin monkeys (Cebus apella) share food even if separated by a mesh restraint. Pairs of capuchins were moved into a test chamber in which one of them received apple pieces for 20 min, and the other received carrot pieces for the next 20 min. Previous research had shown a correlation between the rate of food transfer in both directions across female-female dyads. The present study confirmed this result. Reciprocity across dyads can be explained, however, by symmetry in affiliative and tolerant tendencies between two individuals, provided these tendencies determine food sharing. The present study was designed to exclude this symmetry-based explanation by testing each pair (N=16) of adult females on six separate occasions. There existed a significant covariation across tests of sharing in both dyadic directions, a result unexplained by relationship symmetry. Moreover, control procedures (i.e. testing of a food possessor without a partner, or testing of two individuals with the same food or two different foods at the same time) indicated that behaviour during food trials is not fully explained by mutual attraction or aversion. The monkeys take the quality of their own and the partner's food into account, and possessors limit transfers of high-quality foods. Instead of a symmetry-based reciprocity explanation, a mediating role of memory is suggested, and a mirroring of social attitude between partners. Copyright 2000 The Association for the Study of Animal Behaviour.
PMID: 10973728
This is real research, and not fubsy "look at what my monkey can do" tricks...

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pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6050 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 61 of 82 (189362)
02-28-2005 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by custard
02-28-2005 8:26 PM


monkeys discredited by a psychic parrot lady
Pink Sasquatch: I looked on Pubmed, but I couldn't find any raw data, nor anything about the controls...
I'm assuming you know that you'd have to look up the actual papers (not just the abstracts) to get that information.
I have seen data on similar experiments with chimps showing the exact opposite - that chimps have incredible difficulty mastering the 'bigger reward later for immediate reward now' concept.
Now it's my turn to ask: any references?
my experience with animal behavior experiments is that the more impressive the claim, the more subjective the conclusion on the part of the researchers.
I find statements like this disconcerting - the possible taint of anthropomorphism in turn taints important findings; the more impressive the finding, the greater the taint.
I suggest you read the papers. Legitimate animal behavior experiments shouldn't suffer from the subjectivity you mention, though I know that far too many non-peer-reviewed pseudo-science books have been published on the subject.
Try getting a hold of "Monkeys reject unequal pay". If I recall correctly the language in the paper is extremely tentative - without the sorts of improper jumps in logic that you mention.

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 Message 59 by custard, posted 02-28-2005 8:26 PM custard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by custard, posted 03-02-2005 3:34 PM pink sasquatch has replied

  
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6050 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 65 of 82 (189685)
03-02-2005 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by custard
03-02-2005 3:34 PM


you anthropomorphosizer!
Are you saying that I now have to sift the internet to find the paper, or is there a way to get it from Pubmed?
It depends on the journal. Above most abstracts there is a 'button' that will take you to full text. Again, it depends on the journal whether you (or your library) need a subscription or not to view the full text.
in my experience the more impressive the claim, the more subjective the researchers conclusions have been.
I'm not sure what your experience is - I believe you cited "psychic parrot lady" as your example of an impressive claim with subjective "researchers". I'd rather see a real example of real peer-reviewed animal behavior research that is subjective as you claim, not just some probably crackpot posting their findings on the net.
In fact, it's insulting to place the psychic parrot lady in the same class as legitimate animal behavior researchers.
Can you come up with a real example?
If someone claims or concludes something that seems odd or particularly interesting I want to see the data and how the experiment was performed. I don't think that is unreasonable or out of the question.
I don't think so either. But it seemed that you were impugning any animal behaviorist that produced a significant result, because their result was significant. That does seem rather unreasonable to me. (At least, it seems, you consider animal behavior researchers as "guilty until proven innocent.")
I find nothing odd about a monkey getting upset when it performs the same task it has seen its conspecific perform, yet receives a lesser reward for its efforts. That claim does not seem extraordinary to me in the least.
Wow, really? "Unequal pay" was considered a more groundbreaking finding, since it demonstrated that capuchins have concepts of "greater" and "lesser", and that they are willing to refuse food rewards for ethical reasons. That seems a much more significant finding than cooperative food sharing, which has been observed in primates in the wild.
I've seen my dogs do the EXACT same thing in fact.
Your dog refuses food if it is not as desirable as what the other dog gets?
Now you are making an "impressive" subjective, anthropomorphic claim here. Where is the data? What was your control experiment?
Of course, if you think observing your dogs is equivalent to what animal behaviorist do, then no wonder you have little respect for the field.
I'm talking about 'nut monkey' handing 'rock monkey' some nuts; then Rocky pounds the nuts and hands Nutty roughly half of the goods.
I'm not familiar with this study. Since it involves tool use to open nuts, my best guess is that (if it is real) it is a chimp study. There is a large body of research describing cooperative sharing amongst chimps, particularly surrounding rationing after organized group hunts.
Here is a link to a pdf of a de Waal paper you may have missed.
It shows a cooperative task between two capuchins where only one capuchin gets the reward, but then shares it with the other capuchin. It is a controlled study with statistically significant results that appeared in the peer-reviewed journal Nature.
See what you think of the study...

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 Message 63 by custard, posted 03-02-2005 3:34 PM custard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by custard, posted 03-02-2005 10:53 PM pink sasquatch has not replied
 Message 68 by custard, posted 03-02-2005 11:07 PM pink sasquatch has replied

  
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6050 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 70 of 82 (189750)
03-03-2005 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by custard
03-02-2005 11:07 PM


da BBC
My protestations at the BBC example were not that primates might sometimes share food after cooperating on a task, it was that they shared 50/50, and, the implication was that they ALWAYS shared.
Okay, fair enough - I would likely protest that they ALWAYS shared as well.
I guess (due to misunderstanding) I thought you were protesting that it was a significant result.
Honestly, I am not familiar with the BBC study (has anyone provided a direct link? I thought Ohnhai's links were to other capuchin stuff...)
My argument has been more that similar studies leading to the same underlying conclusion have been done.
I just visited Sarah Brosnan's CV page; she was the lead author on most of the capuchin research we've been discussing. She has also authored work on tool-use in chimpanzees. She also lists that her work has been featured on the BBC.
Perhaps the BBC program convoluted chimpanzee tool-use with capuchin cooperation, in the way popular science programs often "add" together separate results to produce a "sexier" hour of television. (Another possibility is that it reported on anecdotes, or unpublished chimp tool-use cooperation experiments.)
Also, in this experiment I'm curious to know what is considered successful sharing? It is not defined.
It is defined - as the number of pieces (not slices) shared.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by custard, posted 03-02-2005 11:07 PM custard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by custard, posted 03-03-2005 1:27 PM pink sasquatch has replied

  
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6050 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 73 of 82 (189799)
03-03-2005 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by custard
03-03-2005 1:27 PM


paracrapologists
Sometimes it is difficult to maintain one's objectivity.
Hopefully it didn't seem like I was jumping down your throat; I was just trying to be clear in defending the legitimate research.
At least your bias makes some sense in the field of animal behavior, where much of what people are exposed to are "weekend" animal behavior "researchers" with little to no training that think they can extrapolate the lives of their pets or anecdotes to all animals of a species, and then "publish" that research as popular books. These books often become bestsellers, because by my guess, the people buying the books enjoy the idea of their pets or other animals having human qualities.
Those same people are much less interested in a tentative claim in technical language discussing a slight statistical significance of cooperation under highly controlled conditions.
I was just going to reference you to the Chimpanzee Spirituality paper as an example of subjectivity... but I see you've found it...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by custard, posted 03-03-2005 1:27 PM custard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by custard, posted 03-03-2005 2:19 PM pink sasquatch has replied

  
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6050 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 75 of 82 (189807)
03-03-2005 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by custard
03-03-2005 2:19 PM


not too different...
What I also find ironic is how that can go the other way: refusing to acknowledge behavior that is similar to that which is considered solely the domain of human beings - which seems to be congruous with Mike's argument.
Yep, I was thinking the same thing. But I guess the two break down into not too dissimiliar ideas:
1. Humans are special!*
2. Some animals are special because they are like humans!
* (Sorry Mike, forgot: Humans are uniquely different!)

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