Mike's ego trip

Because God made him do it, and thus as it was inspired by god surely it has to be the best post ever?This message has been edited by ohnhai, 24 February 2005 16:59 AM

Well a highly polished spoon has ‘the character of irrefutable brilliance’ but I would not expect it to vote for itself.It is simply not good form to nominate oneself for POTM. Peer nomination is the way it is, and has been done. As it's is accepted as simple good form not to nominate your own posts there isn’t a rule against it because it just simply isn’t done. I have written several post I though were pretty damn cool yet I didn’t nominate them for POTM.And as to the worthiness of post #60 the ideas were neither original, concise, or well written. And if you look around then you will find that many of our supposed unique abilities are being discovered in other animals, from tool use, tool manufacture/modification, cooperation beyond simple hunting strategies to reciprocity.In short post #60 falls well short of being POTM material despite your obvious pride in it.Bad form Sir.This message has been edited by ohnhai, 25 February 2005 16:30 AM

Another example,Quite astounding experiments have been conducted with Capuchin monkeys who display a wide range of astounding traits.One experiment put two monkeys in adjoining rooms with only a small window in the transparent wall. One Monkey had a flint type stone, the other a fixed tube with a thick film lid that can only be opened with a sharp object. In the container are about 8 hazelnuts. Both monkeys can see the nuts, both would like the nuts but they have to work together to get them.Rock monkey takes the rock and smashes it on a hard plate to fracture it (creates a flint tool) he then takes the tool to the window and gives it to nut monkey. Nut monkey then uses the tool to pierce the film lid on the nuts.Then , and here’s the killer, nut monkey takes about half of the nuts and gives them to rock monkey!!! Cooperation and reciprocity.Also on the topic of morphological traits, the capuchin monkey lacks sharp claws, that would have opened the container with ease so the creation and use of a flint type tool puts a sharp ‘claw’ at the end of their arms they don’t normally possess.I think this was on an episode of the BBC program ‘Wild life on One’--edit--added comment on morphological traits --This message has been edited by ohnhai, 27 February 2005 12:32 AM

Sorry cant find a link to any info on the program other than a CV page for the composer and also couldn’t find any links to the research ( will mail the BBC to see if they will release any info)But the program was very interesting. And yes while the experimental procedure would bee good to look at in regard to that particular experiment and others, studies in the wild also showed some interesting traits that shed a similar light on the monkeys in question.Namely there is this nut or something similar that they eat, but it’s too tough for them to bite through, so they climb up on this big boulder and prop the nuts in little indents and whack them with large rounded stones. The boulder has obviously been in use for generations by the ware on it’s upper surface. But when you study the hammer rocks you find they are not local and, it seems, were gathered from a river some miles to the west and brought to this boulder for this communal nut cracking.Not too bad so far we have tool use and tool creation. But the next thing is the really interesting bit interesting bit. As it happens the nut doesn’t grow locally either and can generally be found a mile or so east from the hammer platform. Also the nut is protected by a very fibrous husk that defeats any attempt on the monkey’s part to bludgeon it open. They however have found a solution.They wander to the area where the nuts grow and climb the trees and pick an amount of nuts, but they don’t take the nuts they pick. These are left to rot down a bit so weaken the outer husk enough to get through it. The monkeys pick some fresh nuts then take an equivalent amount of rotted nuts in return and then heads off to the communal anvil to open his meal.This level of cooperation and forward planning astounds me, normally you would expect a wild animal to be out for themselves, and just take the nuts that were ready either by wind fall or the harvesting of others, but they understand that to maintain a supply for them each time they go to gather nuts they must harvest some fresh ones for the communal larder.As I said I will try and get more info on this program.--edit-- found some info, see the following links , but nothing yet that stipulates the methodology, practice and result of the mentiones experiment -- BBC link; some basic info on the brown capuchin
Another link regarding Brown Capuchin reasers (this was also in the program)
A link in regard to resiprocity in the brown capuchin
Experiment to coperation in Brown Capuchins
ok still not the experiment I mentioned but still interesting stuffThis message has been edited by ohnhai, 28 February 2005 12:52 AM

After your comments, I too am interested in the details of the experiment I saw on TV.To this end I have emailed Dr SF Brosnan,(one of the experts in this area) to see if she know of this experiment and any online data for itI wait with baited breath

Actually thats a good point. If the notion is that it’s the ability to augment your natural abilities through other actions and tools, what does it matter if YOU come up with the method or you observe it or were taught it?While I believe it has been shown that Mike’s original stance, that it was uniquely human to extend our natural abilities beyond that which our morphic traits dictate, is wrong (thanks mainly to the diving spider, and to some extent the capuchins) What I will acknowledge is that humans key distinction is the level and complexity that we take it over all aspects of our existence.We are the supreme tool users/makers and through this it have given us the technology to become the dominant organic force on the planet. ( with germs and viruses a close second) but as it seems clear this extended tool use is just an extension and refinement on tool use in other creatures to expand into areas that their morphic traits wouldn’t normally allow. This doesn’t mean we shouldn’t marvel at our skills or not realise the massive advantage that they give us as a species. Some creatures can run fast, some can fly, some can dive to extreme depths, some can shoot scalding chemicals from their rear, some can navigate by sound, some can see heat some can make and use tools. But when it comes to tools we are the masters.

I was gonna say the dominant force on the planet but, then I remembered the tsunami and we can hardly claim to be the dominant force on the planet when we can’t control good old mother nature yet she can smite us in an instant. That’s all