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Author Topic:   Declaration of Arbroath
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1214 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 1 of 90 (284738)
02-07-2006 7:18 PM


Scottish Declaration of Independance.

http://www.constitution.org/scot/arbroath.htm

"Most Holy Father and Lord, we know and from the chronicles and books of the ancients we find that among other famous nations our own, the Scots, has been graced with widespread renown. They journeyed from Greater Scythia by way of the Tyrrhenian Sea and the Pillars of Hercules, and dwelt for a long course of time in Spain among the most savage tribes, but nowhere could they be subdued by any race, however barbarous. Thence they came, twelve hundred years after the people of Israel crossed the Red Sea, to their home in the west where they still live today."

All of the Scottish lords who signed the text did so by attaching their seals:

http://www.abcog.org/gifs/arbroath.jpg

The Scots are claiming to be ancestors of scattered 10 tribe Israel.

Ray

promoted reluctantly by AdminJar


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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5392
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 2 of 90 (284740)
02-07-2006 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object
02-07-2006 7:18 PM


Where the Sam Tucket does that say that the Scots were Hebrews? It seems to say they were Scythians.

And is haggis even kosher?


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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1214 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 3 of 90 (284746)
02-07-2006 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Coragyps
02-07-2006 7:21 PM


It seems to say they were Scythians.

It doesn't seem to say it...it does say it.

Scythians: "booth dwellers". The practice of building a booth to dwell in is Hebrew. During the feast of the Tabernacles Israelites built temporary structures outside their homes to dwell in to remind themselves that they were delivered from Egypt.

Scythians means sons of Isaac.

Ray


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MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 4520 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 4 of 90 (284747)
02-07-2006 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object
02-07-2006 7:18 PM


The Scots are claiming to be ancestors of scattered 10 tribe Israel.

Descendants rather than ancestors surely?


I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then
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Trixie
Member (Idle past 1872 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 5 of 90 (284754)
02-07-2006 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object
02-07-2006 7:18 PM


What is the Declaration of Arbroath?
The Declaration of Arbroath is a letter to Pope John XXII from a number Scottish nobles. It was written as a means of persuading the Pope that Scotland was an independent state and was written in response to the excommunication of Scotland and Scots from the Roman catholic Church. As such it contains much political spin and pleas based on claims that would find sympathy with the Pope.

As to your assertion

The Scots are claiming to be ancestors of scattered 10 tribe Israel.

I have a few minor quibbles.

Firstly, the Scots are not claiming to be the lost tribes of Israel -the declaration was written in 1320, so the most you could say about the declaration is that this was what the Scots were saying, however, nowhere does it say that the Scots didconsider themselves to be the lost tribes of Israel. It mentions the Exodus because it may have inclined the Pope to look more favourably on their plea and it's only there to provide an idea of when they claim it took place.

The declaration claims that they were descended from those who exited Greater Scythia and makes no claims on being the lost tribes of Israel.


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jar
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Posts: 30986
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 6 of 90 (284755)
02-07-2006 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object
02-07-2006 7:18 PM


Ray, no way does it say anthing like what you claim.
Point one. No where does it claim they were related to the Hebrews.

The last sentence is simply dating. Let's parse it...

Thence they came, twelve hundred years after the people of Israel crossed the Red Sea, to their home in the west where they still live today.

The section deliminated by commas is dating when the action took place. The sentence when parsed reads, "Thence they came to their home in the west where they still live today. They came there twelve hundred years after the people of Israel crossed the Red Sea.

No connection other than a dating.

Greater Scythia does not refer to the Hebrews. In fact, the Scythians were not even a semitic peoples. The area was what would be called Azerbijan and the people were Indo-Europeans, closer to those of Iran than to those of Palistine.

The route mentioned is pretty reasonable, since the Tyrrhenian Sea would be the northern part of the med and the most reasonable sea route from their ancestral home in Persia to Spain.

So Ray, there is nothing in your post that even hints at support for your assertions. But it gets worse.

You provided a link. And your link itself calls the history part of it "laughable fiction". Your very own source goes on to say...

In its mixture of defiance and supplication, nonsensical history and noble thought, two things make the Declaration of Arbroath the most important document in Scottish history.

And that's pretty much all you have Ray, nonsensical history.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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NosyNed
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Posts: 8842
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 7 of 90 (284756)
02-07-2006 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by jar
02-07-2006 8:19 PM


Nonsensical History
Thanks Jar. I thought Ray was amusing before; he manages to go even further. (well, maybe not beyond his problem with reading maps but pretty far :) ) LOL
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1214 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 8 of 90 (284758)
02-07-2006 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Trixie
02-07-2006 8:16 PM


Re: What is the Declaration of Arbroath?
Firstly, the Scots are not claiming to be the lost tribes of Israel

These Scottish nobles are claiming what the text SAYS.

Their ORIGIN: Hebrews who crossed the Red Sea. Thats why the text mentions this event.

the declaration was written in 1320, so the most you could say about the declaration is that this was what the Scots were saying

I am saying the Scots are saying....yes Trixie.

They know where they descended from. The text tells us where THEY SAY.

It mentions the Exodus because it may have inclined the Pope to look more favourably on their plea and it's only there to provide an idea of when they claim it took place.

Your belief about the fact is false.

The Exodus is mentioned because they are claiming to be descendants. [source: Dr. E. Raymond Capt]

Of course 1320 predates British Israelism cult. Sycthians = sons of Isaac.

You seem to be asserting the text does not mean what it says. This is a modern Darwinian need as is seen in their handling of the Bible.

The text/evidence claims ancestry from Hebrews.

Ray


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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1214 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 9 of 90 (284763)
02-07-2006 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by jar
02-07-2006 8:19 PM


The Text says what it means unless you can prove otherwise ....
....and explain why all these Scottish lords attempted to deceive. Denial of Hebrew origin of the Isles is a modern invent/need by secular scholars.

Point one. No where does it claim they were related to the Hebrews.

Only if you ignore what it says.

Greater Scythia does not refer to the Hebrews. In fact, the Scythians were not even a semitic peoples. The area was what would be called Azerbijan and the people were Indo-Europeans, closer to those of Iran than to those of Palistine.

Scythians are sons of Isaac. They were Celts and semetic/Shemitic = "light skinned peoples" (Dr. Scott). Their origin is north of the Caucasus Mountains, hence "caucasian"/light skinned peoples.

Very popular Nordic surname: Isaacson = sons of Isaac.

You provided a link. And your link itself calls the history part of it "laughable fiction". Your very own source goes on to say...

The links only purpose was to have a source for the text itself. Calling the text fiction is asserting the evidence is not genuine. What evidence do you have that all these Scottish nobles are wrong ?

Ray

This message has been edited by Herepton, 02-07-2006 05:52 PM


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Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1134 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 10 of 90 (284765)
02-07-2006 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Cold Foreign Object
02-07-2006 8:34 PM


Re: What is the Declaration of Arbroath?
Herepton writes:

The Exodus is mentioned because they are claiming to be descendants.

So why didn't they write:

Thence they came, the people of Israel, twelve hundred years after they crossed the Red Sea, to their home in the west where they still live today

Instead of:

Thence they came, twelve hundred years after the people of Israel crossed the Red Sea, to their home in the west where they still live today.

That's not a rhetorical question.

Edit: idiotic omission on my part.

2nd edit: merely hasty typo.

This message has been edited by Omnivorous, 02-07-2006 08:54 PM

This message has been edited by Omnivorous, 02-07-2006 09:33 PM


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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1214 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 11 of 90 (284770)
02-07-2006 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by NosyNed
02-07-2006 8:23 PM


Re: Nonsensical History
I thought Ray was amusing before; he manages to go even further. (well, maybe not beyond his problem with reading maps but pretty far ) LOL

That debate showed how ignorant you were of basic geometry since the height was proven via 3 separate scholars. I can prove the height with atheist scholars alone (5449 polar diameter inches), but we know from the very recent past EvC will not let itself get humliated as is seen in refusing to debate my last PNT.

Ray


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jar
Member
Posts: 30986
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 12 of 90 (284782)
02-07-2006 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Cold Foreign Object
02-07-2006 8:48 PM


Re: The Text says what it means unless you can prove otherwise ....
Ray, the record is here. And you OP has been completely refuted. Your posts have only proven that you cannot even read your own sources.

No where in the Declaration is there any claims that the Scots were descended from Hebrews. And if Scotty said that Scythians = Hebrews, well, that only shows once again he didn't have a clue what he was talking about.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
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Trixie
Member (Idle past 1872 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 13 of 90 (284786)
02-07-2006 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Cold Foreign Object
02-07-2006 8:34 PM


Re: What is the Declaration of Arbroath?
So far, you're the only one who is able to see this in the text. Funny that.

Also, if you want to quote me, include the full quote, rather than distorting my words, it's bad form. You quote me as saying

the declaration was written in 1320, so the most you could say about the declaration is that this was what the Scots were saying

What I said was

the declaration was written in 1320, so the most you could say about the declaration is that this was what the Scots were saying, however, nowhere does it say that the Scots didconsider themselves to be the lost tribes of Israel.

You will notice that the completed quote points out that they are, in fact, not claiming this. Do not attribute to me opinions which are diametrically opposed to the position I have actually stated most clearly.

You say

You seem to be asserting the text does not mean what it says.

Actually I'm saying that the text says what it says. It doesn't say what you imagine it to say.

you say

This is a modern Darwinian need as is seen in their handling of the Bible.

Totally irrelevant repetition of your usual ad hominem.

You say

The text/evidence claims ancestry from Hebrews.

The text doesn't say this one little bit and anyone else reading the text can see that. Therefore the text itself is evidence that you're wrong. What doesn't help you is your own source, as jar pointed out.


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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1214 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 14 of 90 (284790)
02-07-2006 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by jar
02-07-2006 9:09 PM


Re: The Text says what it means unless you can prove otherwise ....
No where in the Declaration is there any claims that the Scots were descended from Hebrews. And if Scotty said that Scythians = Hebrews, well, that only shows once again he didn't have a clue what he was talking about.

Ad hom rant against a scholar caused by the inability to refute. You are completely ignorant and expect everyone to hold your unsupported assertions as fact.

The text says what it means and proves any evidence proving the Bible is ignored/suppressed just like the Bible claims.

Romans 1:18 NewKJV

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness"

ungodly means against recognizing God.

unrighteous, in context, means against faith.

Who in our society is guilty of the above ?

Atheists and Darwinists.

What do these persons do ?

Verse 18: "....who suppress the truth in unrighteousness"

They suppress the truth while hostile to the way of faith = secular society best represented by Jar.

Your "argument"/denial proves this verse represents reality = claim of the Bible.

Ray


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jar
Member
Posts: 30986
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 15 of 90 (284792)
02-07-2006 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Cold Foreign Object
02-07-2006 9:30 PM


Read Romans 1 too Ray.
Roman's 1 says that we will come to know GOD from what we learn in the world, by studying Evolution.

But back on topic.

The thread is here as a record Ray. Everyone can read it. In case they missed it here it is again. see Message 6

"Most Holy Father and Lord, we know and from the chronicles and books of the ancients we find that among other famous nations our own, the Scots, has been graced with widespread renown. They journeyed from Greater Scythia by way of the Tyrrhenian Sea and the Pillars of Hercules, and dwelt for a long course of time in Spain among the most savage tribes, but nowhere could they be subdued by any race, however barbarous. Thence they came, twelve hundred years after the people of Israel crossed the Red Sea, to their home in the west where they still live today."

Now Ray, where in there does it say that they are claiming descent from Hebrews?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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