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Author Topic:   Declaration of Arbroath
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 31 of 90 (285389)
02-10-2006 1:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object
02-07-2006 7:18 PM


read through the thread thus far
It's disgraceful the lack of substance and intelligence showed by the evos posting here in somewhat absurd responses to you. JUst want that stated for the record....
Interesting topic...it appears that maybe some Scots did claim to be one of the lost tribes of Israel. If you have some more evidence/links, I would be interested in it. The Celts are a very interesting group of people.
Of course, the Scots also intermarried with others so it's not like they would all purely be descendants of Israel.
Georgians, if that's what you call them, speak a language, I believe, most related to the Basques, and there are different connections that spread to Spain and other areas from the Caucuses, but I have never studied it much.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 32 of 90 (285392)
02-10-2006 1:41 AM


interesting link
snippet from it
The Gaelic alphabet as well as the ordinal numbers show more commonality than could be expected after 2,700 years of divergence; for example we have a Hebrew “S” retained in the modern Gaelic - the Hebrew Sheen, pronounced Sh is found in the Irish “S” as in the name Sean pronounced Shawn. Other letters are similar, the ordinal numbers 6 & 7 are pronounced almost the same as Hebrew and Gaelic.
Words with same or similar meanings abound; for instance the Hebrew word for holy in common usage according to Halacha (Jewish law) is Kasher. The word in Manx Gaelic for hallowed or holy is Casherick. The syntax of Gaelic is entirely different from any other European language, especially English. R.L. Thompson, in his work Outline of Manx Literature and Language says that “in several respects Gaelic syntax has similarities with that of languages like Hebrew and Arabic”.
As in Hebrew, adjectives follow the noun that they describe: for example “ben vie” = “a good woman” in Gaelic and “Rosh ketan” = “small head” or “stupid” in Hebrew. (Vie or ketan being the adjectives) The word order also is similar in Hebrew in that the verb is usually first in the sentence unlike English or many other European languages. These are just a very few of the many commonalities that I believe suggest a definite connection between the two languages and their family streams. This alone could constitute a major comparative study.
....
After the invasion of the Romans into the Isles, white cattle were introduced and later used; until that time red was the preferred colour. One of the most famous wars in Irish history was over a Red Bull stolen by a northern Irish tribe. Also, swine were not raised in any of the early Celtic areas until after they were introduced by the Romans; the Celts had a taboo against them along with scaleless fish as eels and shellfish. The Celts, in similitude to the Israelites, were excellent herdsmen and developed identifiable breeds of sheep, cattle and horses, that carried on the traditions of the Israelites.
OTHER PROOFS
Perhaps one of the most telling of the commonalities is simply the self-identification as Israelites the Hibernians - the name of the Irish and the Scots and the Hebrides Islands off the coast of Scotland. The Milesians, one of the early Celtic peoples to come to Ireland from Spain had a tradition that they were of the Lost Tribes. The name Heber, Eber, or H’berian is found throughout early literature to describe the Celts as they described themselves to be “Of Eber” ” the grandfather of Abraham.
What I have presented here in greatly abbreviated form just skims the surface of the commonalities between the Celtic Peoples and the Israelites. There is a tremendous amount of information available for those who would like to look at this closer themselves. A few resources are listed at the end. This is one of those subjects in which at first one can say “oh, that’s an interesting coincidence”. But the sheer mass of these “coincidences” that build up after one goes from one discipline to another becomes totally overwhelming. The fact that so much of the languages are similar almost three thousand years later, that customs are clearly identifiable as being related, that religious practices are uniquely similar and that the everyday agricultural practices and crops were similar ” all along with the many other commonalities bespeak a common origin.
For those interested in pursuing this I wish you well and much enjoyment.
Page not found | The Ensign Message
This message has been edited by randman, 02-10-2006 01:44 AM

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Funkaloyd
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 90 (285396)
02-10-2006 2:06 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Cold Foreign Object
02-09-2006 11:53 PM


Re: Corroborating Evidence: Tribe of Dan
Red herring = inability to refute.

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 34 of 90 (285400)
02-10-2006 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by randman
02-10-2006 1:31 AM


Re: read through the thread thus far
So is it "utterly disgraceful" for evolutionsts to point out the fact that the Declaration of Arbroath does NOT claim that the Scots are descended from the Israelites ? That it instead puts their origin in Scythia, thus claiming that they are descended from the Scythians ?
If you think so then please explain why people should simply accept what Ray says, even if it is obviously false.?

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 35 of 90 (285401)
02-10-2006 2:15 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by PaulK
02-10-2006 2:13 AM


Re: read through the thread thus far
From a quick reading, I think ray is probably correct that the reference to Israel in context is meant to indicate they feel that is their origin, and the posts put forth denying that have contained no additional evidence. Moreover, it's not a secret that some Celts did indeed believe to descend from Israel. The attitude of the evos here has been unnecessarily rude and oddly no real evidence offered other than to bash ray, for seeming no reason.
Rereading the declaration, I will admit that it is not a clear and definite claim to have descended from Israel, but at the same time, the context in referring to their origins can be read to embrace Israelite origins. I think other evidence is needed, and that the proper response would be to look for more evidence, as I have done, and it seems to be there.
But why do evos make even an innocuous discussion like this something of such rancor? The evos here are a weird, insular group of people.
This message has been edited by randman, 02-10-2006 02:24 AM

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ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 36 of 90 (285402)
02-10-2006 2:26 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by randman
02-10-2006 1:41 AM


Re: interesting link
they never called themselves of eber or heber, it is what the romans and greeks called them, maybe after they converted to christianity, the irish and scottish identified with some of the OT figures but, not one thing written by early non-christian writters identify with jewish writtings
as for the language the celts did trade with the phoenicians when they lived int he mainlands, and the phoenicians are semites so they spoke a very closely related language to the hebrews, they are the canaanites, canaanite is even a phoenician word
as for the stuff about the romans, they never invaded ireland in force, they never got a toe hold, more likely the irish stole cattle and pigs from roman lands in england
as for the food, they were sacred to the irish it had nothing to do with food laws but just like the hindus who think the cow is sacred
everything in this page is wrong if you bother to read about anything deeper, in fact the celts - including the scots and irish, were nothing like the israelites its nothing short of making up things

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 37 of 90 (285403)
02-10-2006 2:29 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by ReverendDG
02-10-2006 2:26 AM


Re: interesting link
Rev, the article actually supplies facts from someone that grew up both Irish and Jewish. You are making unsupported claims. For example:
they never called themselves of eber or heber, it is what the romans and greeks called them,
Link? Evidence?
And the rest of your comments are less credible.

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ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 38 of 90 (285404)
02-10-2006 2:31 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by randman
02-10-2006 2:15 AM


Re: read through the thread thus far
But why do evos make even an innocuous discussion like this something of such rancor? The evos here are a weird, insular group of people.
because he is taking the word of one man instead of bothering to think for himself? he doesn't bother to dig deeper than the surfice?
i know a lot about irish/scotish history, and it seems really terrible to read this nonsensical reconstruction of my ancesters

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ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 39 of 90 (285405)
02-10-2006 2:33 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by randman
02-10-2006 2:29 AM


Re: interesting link
good, i will give you links then
http://www.tylwythteg.com/tylwythteg/sacred.html - sacred animals of the celts
Hibernia - Wikipedia - origin of the word
http://www.quantal.demon.co.uk/saga/ooc/tribunal.html - another dealing with latin names of everything
Page not found - Fanaticus - you get the idea that they never had a chance to invade by the time they set out to rome was starting to colapse
http://phoenicia.org/celts.html - i take back that they where semetic, but spoke a language very much like the hewbrews - word structure,etc
http://www.laa.org/tours/phoenicians.htm - they were the canaanites, though not the stigmaed version in the OT
LE webmagazine animalier ne pas manquer ! - heres another link about Hibernia
This message has been edited by ReverendDG, 02-10-2006 02:36 AM
This message has been edited by ReverendDG, 02-10-2006 02:46 AM
This message has been edited by ReverendDG, 02-10-2006 02:51 AM

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 40 of 90 (285406)
02-10-2006 2:33 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by randman
02-10-2006 1:31 AM


Re: read through the thread thus far
I agree that there may well have been, at least historically, scots who have claimed descent from the lost tribees of Israel. There may well still be some who do, involved perhaps with the British-Israel movement or the Christian Identity movement. This theory is most abviously promulgated at the moment however by some of the less pleasant adherents of the religious right, i.e. white supremacists.
That aside, are you saying that the actual bit f tecxt in question, i.e 'Thence they came, twelve hundred years after the people of Israel crossed the Red Sea, to their home in the west where they still live today.', explicitly identifies the scots as being descended from the people of israel and could not possibly be parsed as a 'time mark' or a way of dating the scots' entry into Scotland?
TTFN,
WK

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 41 of 90 (285409)
02-10-2006 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Wounded King
02-10-2006 2:33 AM


Re: read through the thread thus far
Could be a time-mark, sure. One of the more interesting aspects of studying Celtic origins that I found reading tonight is that they are genetically related to the Basques, which I guessed before reading that since the Basques linquistically seem a little related to the Georgians in the Caucus mountains.
However, the Celtic languages though are not connected to the Basque language, whatever it is called.
It's interesting though that they would trace their origins back to the Scythians and Caucus region and that the Basques, the Celts, and the Caucus are connected. Personally, I can believe that some of the tribes of Israel perhaps did become Celts, but I would also think there would intermarry along the way, and become something different.
The whole Christian Identity thing just seems off the map to me. I don't think speculating about Celtic roots should be considered somehow advancing white supremacy or anything like that, and I don't think you imply that, but just want to be clear on that.
This message has been edited by randman, 02-10-2006 03:02 AM

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 42 of 90 (285411)
02-10-2006 3:15 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by randman
02-10-2006 2:15 AM


Re: read through the thread thus far
quote:
From a quick reading, I think ray is probably correct that the reference to Israel in context is meant to indicate they feel that is their origin
How long does it take to read it carefully ? It is perfectly obvious that the reference to the Israelites is employed only as a time-marker in the actual text - and there has been nothing from Ray that sensibly supports any other reading.
And - given the influence of the Church at the time, both in politics and history - it is not surprising that they would choose a major Bibical event as a date-marker.
(I would add that according to modern historical knowledge they are very wrong - the Scots invaded Scotland from Ireland hundreds of years later - the earliest dating I have seen puts the first settlement in Scotland in the 2nd Century AD, and that was only a colony of the Irish kingdom of Dalriada)n

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 43 of 90 (285418)
02-10-2006 4:52 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by randman
02-10-2006 3:02 AM


Re: read through the thread thus far
I believe the Basque language is called Euskara.
I was actually suggesting that celtic root, both modern and ancient, have been taken up by white supremacist movements. Many of those who argue for an origin of the scots, or other peoples of the british isles, with members of the house of Israel also argue that the jews are 'seed' of Satan [1][2][3].
So speculating about Celtic roots shouldn't be about advancing white supremacy I agree, but that is how some white supremacists are trying to use it.
TTFN,
WK
---------------------------------------------
[1] The American right and Scottish nationalism - World Socialist Web Site
[2] Christian Identity a Christian Response
[3] Publications | Human Nature

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 44 of 90 (285471)
02-10-2006 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by randman
02-10-2006 1:23 AM


Re: No Ray, once again it does not say what you assert.
I did provide evidence. I went through the claim step by step serveral times. What more evidence is needed, that I show that Spain is where it is, that I show the Tyrrhenian Sea is where it is, that I show that Scythia is above the Black Sea?
The facts are that the Declaration makes no claims that the Scots were Hebrews or one of the Lost Tribes.
The very fact that this was written to the Pope would preclude any such claim. This document was made only 30 years after the Edict of Expulsion when Edward I ordered all Jews out of the Isles. From 1290 until the 1650s there is no record of Jews anywhere in the Isles except in the Domus Conversorum which was a building and ghetto for Jews who converted to Christianity.
If the Scots wanted help and support from the Pope, claiming they were one of the Lost Tribes of Israel whould be an act of stupidity. It would be far more likely to bring an expidition to wipe them out that any hope of support.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 45 of 90 (285491)
02-10-2006 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Wounded King
02-10-2006 4:52 AM


Re: read through the thread thus far
I know, but we shouldn't let a topic be tainted just because some wackos want to use it to harm people. Celtic and other people's roots are of interest all on their own.

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