Guns

You know this is a fallacious statement; and you know that someone was bound to point it out to you. Explain to me how what other civilizations have done is even half-way relevant in deciding what is right for the here and now.Jon

If the Canadian army decided to attack the United States, and the citizens of Duluth, Minnesota grabbed up their guns, went out of their houses, and started shooting them down as the Canadians came on through... THAT is a militia.A militia such as that is important in defending a country. Imagine how many Canadians those Duluthians can kill off before the government has time to react and send trained soldiers. The government at that timed realized that a militia:1) could be gathered almost immediately. Remember, in the days that law was written, the only way to send messages was on horse, so that invaders would otherwise be able to destroy homes and kill citizens in the time it took the horse to run to wherever the trained soldiers were stationed, wait for the generals there to formulate a plan, send the trained soldiers along with all the supplies needed to sustain them away from the base, etc.2) greatly increases the number of 'fighters' available to the country. Imagine how powerful the country's defence would be against the Canadians if all the able-bodied people grabbed their guns and started plucking off Canadians one-by-one... a lot more powerful than just the military on its own.3) allows people the basic and fundamental 'God-given', as it were, right to defend their own land against invading Canadians, Mexicans, Russians, etc. At this time in the country's history, I do not think many people held the military in very high regard, and I would imagine those hesitant about the revolution were probably concerned with whether or not the military could effectively protect all its citizenry, especially those living far from the main government centres.I hope that has cleared things up.Jon

Yep.

Criminals get guns. Make it illegal to get guns. Criminals get guns. Find all the guns and melt them down. Criminals get guns.

Why should they be allowed to register physical identification of you in some database without your consent?

I should've been more specific. I meant 'Database,' with a capital 'D.' In this case, I think your parents done you wrong. I consider 'prints'”finger, foot, retinal scans, urine samples, DNA, etc.”to be 'personal property,' and do not think that any organization should be allowed access to them without consent or just cause, in the same way that I do not think any organization, which includes Uncle Sam , should be allowed access to other personal property of mine”house, car, etc.”without just cause or my consent.JonEdited by Jon, : YAY! Em-dashes! :-D

This is such a stupid statement. People don't carry around guns because they feel inadequate about their manhood. Besides, I thought you were all talking about women defending themselves, no? I really fail to see the connection between a woman and manhood...Also, not everyone who owns guns is a drunken hillbilly. Equating gun ownership with stupidity is, as I'm sure you know, fallacious.Jon

Now you have backed yourself into a corner. Unless you can prove that everyone who owns automatic assault rifles with armour-piercing rounds own them because they plan to go on a killing spree, you will have to retract that statement.Prove or retract... the EvC Golden Rule. Jon

A replica? Perhaps they should tear down the Colosseum and put up a replica in its place? Either way, that's a minor point. Sure, at first that might have been the reason for inventing the gun, but that doesn't mean someone now cannot get one for a totally different reason. Maybe they are a gun collector. I mean, what you are saying is similar to asserting that the only reason anyone would want to collect”own”a silver dollar would be to spend it. They get their dollar, and sometimes take it out to look at it... show it off, etc. Well, can they not also do the same with the gun? Does their only reason for getting it have to be to use it for its intended purpose? No, you asserted that the only reason to have one of those guns is to kill people. Now, you have to prove that. You said All Reasons are for killing, in other words, All R are K. Now, just because your statement is so ridiculously inclusive does not mean you can get away with making it and not having to prove it. Prove or retract.JonEdited by Jon, : No reason given.Edited by Jon, : clarify

Can you address the actual post? Not to mention that this didn't even address the point about people wanting to collect guns. Are museums now the only place that can collect things? Once again, prove that the only reason anyone has ever owned such a gun is for killing, or RETRACT your statement.Jon

Do I see someone slowly shifting the point? Fallacy! It is not 'they have gone on a killing spree or not,' the issue is whether they purchase the gun for THAT purpose. If they buy it just so they can look at it, then they haven't bought it for the purpose you claim everyone buys it for. You claimed that here: Prove that statement, or RETRACT IT! I will refer you to Forum Rule #4 for further information on what this means. What kind of a collector wants to own a fake? Would you suggest coin collectors all own fake coins? Perhaps the foil ones with chocolate inside?You have two things to prove:1) that no one has ever owned such a gun without the intent of killing people
2) that there is any reason why a collector should be forced to own a fake, and especially in an institute of learning”such as a museum”they should try to teach people with fake examplesCan you do that? If not, retract the points.Jon

Personally, if someone started grabbing me in a sexual manner, and I had a gun, and the legal right to do so, I'd put a bullet between their eyes faster than they could blink.Jon

First, let me just say that my last post was more or less a joke/exaggeration. I'd only go after someone like that if they were really trying to get me bad .Now, why can other gun-toting nations have lower crime rate than the U.S.? Don't you think you ant-gun folks need to address that before you can claim guns are responsible for all the U.S.'s mayhem? It seems to me like you folks are all lazy/ignorant; and I am not trying to say that in a bad way. Why get rid of the weapon when it's the person”and ultimately society as a whole”that is the problem?Why do you think that in one of the most racist and minority-oppressed nations we also have an insanely high crime rate? Why is it that a person of African descent is 7 more likely to commit a murder than one of European descent? Is it the guns? Perhaps the problems lies much deeper... Do you think that it would help if, in the near future, you stopped worrying about such petty crap as how/where to get the gun(s) and started trying to fix the real problem? Once again, I do not mean this as any offence, but people like you”who are ignorant of what's going on”are the real cause behind these social problems that lead to increased gun violence.Let me simplify that: How can you make the issue solely about gun control/ownership when there are so many other obvious differences between nations with legalized guns and low crime? You can take away the guns... but the minorities will still be oppressed. You can send all the poor children to good schools... but the minorities will still be oppressed. You can pass”and have passed”laws declaring equality... but the minorities will still be oppressed.Will you deal with the real issues: minority oppression, institutionalized inequality, racism, negative stereotypes; or will you try to fix it on a superficial gun control/ownership level simply to remain ignorant of the real problems you refuse to address? The choice is yours to have. The future depends on your decision. Jon.

Well, no. I will read an article when it has raw data in it, or when it at least cites the sources of its raw data so I can go find it myself. As far as I know, the whole damn article could be just made up. Perhaps more credible sources? It's the oppression that causes the violence, not the guns. Why don't you deal with that instead of trying to run from it with a post that is hardly relevant to anything I said? So, will you tell us all again why an African American is 7 more likely to commit murder than a Euro American? Personally, I don't think it's the guns; and removing the guns won't get the minorities out of the shitty life they live; and getting them out of the shitty life they live will make getting rid of guns unnecessary. Can you address that?Jon