quote:but how are we supposed to know who's this stupid?
I think we already know that many, many many people are, indeed, this stupid. The 800-900 accidental shooting deaths per year should tell you that. That doesn't even include the number of guns that are stolen out of people's homes or used in suicides because they were not adequately secured.
quote:Background checks could be improved, by giving the ATF some legitimate funds for starters, and that'd take huge chunk out of this problem. But I fail to see what your proposal is short of banning guns as to ensure that this DOES NOT HAPPEN as you seem to be desiring?
I don't expect accidents and misdeeds to never happen. That is impossible. I am simply proposing that we take steps to reduce the liklihood of them happening. As it stands right now, the laws are far too lax WRT liability. For example, gun owners should be held reasonably responsible for securing their firearms and if they don't, should be held liable if the gun they failed to secure properly is stolen and then used in the commission of a crime.
quote:Is this a mental block? I know you don't want to ban guns, but you don't want to idiot to blow his head off, or worse yet hurt someone else. Me too; I just don't really see what you're proposing. Do we agree that we need to put funding in the right places, improve background checking, and get the APS (American Psychology... society, I think?) organized to get these crazies some help? If yes, then we're in agreement!
What the mental block is is this:
I say, "Guns in a home greatly increases the liklihood of someone in that home being killed with a gun."
Then you say, "Yeah, but if they didn't shoot themselves, they would just stab themselves in the hand with a pair of scissors instead."
This response, in different forms, is brought out over and over again, and I don't understand how someone can seriously equate a pair of scissors and a gun.
Can't you see that a gun and a pair of scissors have entirely different potentials for lethally wounding someone?
quote:But are you saying that a criminal is more likely to break in while someone's home than when they're away?
No, I believe the evidence says that people who want to steal your stuff do not want to encounter any people. Sorry if I appeared to say otherwise.
Well, if your views aren't based upon solid evidence, what are they based upon? Preconceptions? Gut feelings? Fear and other emotions?
quote:How about experience and rhetoric?
Personal experience and rhetoric leads to bias and error in conclusions.
quote:Okay, Descartes, am I to assume my whole life hasn't happened?
No. But your "whole life" doesn't represent anywhere close to an accurate picture of the reality of the issue we are discussing.
And unless you have been keeping really, really good records of the events in your life, confirmation bias is likely to be rampant in your impressions.
quote:To deny what I've seen would be living in denial, even though I don't think we really disagree on much. I can't bring myself to think that I'm safer without a gun in my house when my neighborhood goes to shit.
Maybe you are and maybe you aren't. The data I've seen suggests that you are more likely to be shot or kill yourself if you have a gun in your house, and more likely to be burgled, too. The data also suggests that the chances of you using your gun in a legitimate case of self-defense are very small.
quote:I'm not asking you to fix this problem in a paragraph, but to what degree to you think gun restrictions should be intesnified, and why? I have a feeling I'll agree with 95% of what you'll say.
Please reread message 12 on the first page of this thread and tell me what you'd like me to elaborate on. I may or may not have a fleshed-out answer for you, but I'll do my best.
Alright, before I address you points NJ, I want to clear something up.
You "pro-shoot people" people keep claiming that you can use a gun for defense against someone.
A hand gun is piss poor defense against a bullet. Look at the size and shape of a handgun. If the attacker doesn't hit the gun directly, they aren't going to be stopped at all.
A better tool for self defense would be a bullet proof vest or an armor plated car.
You don't use a gun for defense, you use a gun for offense. You want to have a gun so that you can KILL someone who you think is going to do you harm. Stop pretending like you aren't looking to KILL someone.
Now, onto NJ's post:
Its common sense that by trying to ban guns, all you really do is ensure the people who don't play by the rules remain armed, while you are disarming those with integrity.
Once again, you've restated the position which no one is stating. No one is saying we take away ALL guns. We are saying it should be HARDER for people to get SOME KINDS of guns.
I keep hearing you and Nator saying that its way too easy to buy a handgun, but neither of you have offered any solutions or defined what "easy" constitutes in this instance
Okay, here's an example.
I live in a state where it is illegal to own a fully automatic Uzi, but I want one so I can kill all the girl scouts on my street. I get in my car, I drive a couple of hours into Arizona and go to a gun show. While there I pay a couple hundred dollars for a non-automatic Uzi, no background check, then from the EXACT SAME VENDOR, I purchase the missing part that's needed to make it fully automatic, and the video of how to put that part back into the gun. I pay maybe 20 bucks for the spring and another 20 bucks for the uzi.
Here's another example:
I live in NYC and have a criminal record for armed robbery. It is illegal for me to buy a hand gun. I go to a store, pick out a gun I want, hand some money to my brother, who hands the money to the store owner. The store owner hands my brother a gun, which he then hands to me.
THAT'S VERY EASY.
Please tell me how you plan on making any difference by taking away people's guns?
Jesus, you people are dumb. I'll say this in caps. NO ONE IS SAYING TAKE AWAY EVERYONE'S GUNS.
NO. ONE. IS. SAYING. TAKE. AWAY. EVERYONE'S. GUNS.
I see Joe Gangbanger every day, in every single city I've ever lived in.
Exactly how many gun fights have you been in, if you've been accosted by Joe Gangbanger and his gun EVERY day in the EVERY city?
Maybe Joe would, but my muzzle control is a little better than that.
Either arrogent or retard, or both.
This may be news to you, but you don't have "muzzle control" over the handgun that your wife uses to blow your head off. You are MORE likely to the victim of a shot FROM YOUR OWN GUN that from SOMEONE ELSES GUN.
What do you call a person who bitches about something but offers no real solutions
You people are really starting to make me sick. ALL YOU DO is put up a strawman - "You want to take away everyone's guns!" then repeat it adnaseum.
When we reply that that's not what we said, you say "You haven't offered any solutions."
BECAUSE WE"VE SPENT ALL OUR TIME TRYING TO EXPLAIN TO YOU GODDAMN MOUTHBREATHERS WHAT THE FUCKING DEBATE IS ABOUT!!!!
There's NO point in explaining solutions to you, you don't have the first clue what the hell we are talking about.
It's like all you "pro-shoot people" crowd are a bunch of fucking creationists. You say "Scientists want to ban the Bible!" And we say, "um no." Then you say "You haven't proven creation." And we say, "we're trying to answer you question about banning the bible." And you follow it up with "God speaks to me directly!"