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Author Topic:   note: this discussion has turned for the better;read pgs/Where do the laws come from?
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 31 of 120 (357502)
10-19-2006 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Hyroglyphx
10-19-2006 2:34 PM


Re: No easy answers
Why is it, as you say, impossible for them not to exist?
I don't know why, but haven't you noticed that there's no universe we're aware of where there isn't gravity, electromagnetism, matter, energy, etc?
Well, according to Einstein, he was convinved that God does not play dice.
As it turned out, he was wrong. Not surprising, really - it wasn't exactly his field of expertise. Even Einstein was not infallible.
As for my assumptions, would you not agree that after examining the complexity of the variables that govern our solar system fit within a very narrow range that would allow for life to flourish on this planet?
We don't know that the "variables" you refer to are actually all that variable. We absolutely don't know what forms of life are possible or impossible under alternate values of those variables, if alternate values can even exist.
What you're asking is akin to asking why the tea inside the teacup is so coincidentally shaped exactly like the inside of a teacup. Look, if the initial conditions of the universe are so apparently "fine-tuned" for life as we know it, why is life as we know it such a rare occurance in the universe? It does, after all, exist on one unremarkable planet orbiting an unremarkable star in a completely unremarkable spiral galaxy. I mean it seems pretty obvious to me that the universe is a place astronomically hostile to life as we know it, not a place fine-tuned to be its cradle.
Here's a paper on the subject that I've always enjoyed:
System Unavailable
Mandate my superiority to others? How am I acting superior?
You don't think you're acting superior when you refer to atheists as "fools"? You don't find that language condescending? I don't know about you but my mother taught me a little better than that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-19-2006 2:34 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-19-2006 7:20 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1240 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 32 of 120 (357557)
10-19-2006 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by jar
10-19-2006 12:27 PM


This is important
Jar,
It is such a great concept that it will take a moment for me to put into better words...
For example: Why is an atom shaped as it is shaped?
Generally, objects with more weight have a greater mass. Why is this the way it is?
DO NOT overlook this premise.
The very nature of every very thing in the universe, including the universe itself and it's nature must have a reason for being.
How is "the inherent nature" described without a creator?
Please do not ridicule me for my words for they require must stewing and thought; many months if not years to fully comprehend.
I am asking a lot of EvC forum.
Edited by -messenjah of one, : typo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by jar, posted 10-19-2006 12:27 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 10-19-2006 7:14 PM Trump won has replied
 Message 44 by DrJones*, posted 10-19-2006 9:23 PM Trump won has replied
 Message 49 by sidelined, posted 10-20-2006 12:54 AM Trump won has replied
 Message 50 by sidelined, posted 10-20-2006 1:20 AM Trump won has replied
 Message 51 by sidelined, posted 10-20-2006 1:31 AM Trump won has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 33 of 120 (357564)
10-19-2006 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Trump won
10-19-2006 7:00 PM


Re: This is important
Please do not ridicule me for my words for they require must stewing and thought; many months if not years to fully comprehend.
Well, no they don't. Sorry.
The answer is exactly the same as the reason I had seventy-five cents in coins in my pocket.
But here is an important question. It may take months if not years to fully comprehend.
I just looked and miraculously I now have one dollar and sixty cents change in my pocket.
DO NOT overlook this premise.
The "nature" as you so loosely describe it is as WE describe it to be. Even then, you really need to add even more definition for your statements to be true.
For example:
Generally, objects with more weight have a greater mass. Why is this the way it is?
Think about that statement. Which weighs more, a cubic foot of pure iron on the earth or the moon? Which has more mass, the cubic foot or iron on the earth, or the one on the moon?
We learn more and more everyday about the whys. We are learning why atoms have the shape they do, and the rules seem pretty straight forward. We are now beginning to build with just that knowledge, to create objects, machines, that are based only on the knowledge of why things are shaped as they are.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Trump won, posted 10-19-2006 7:00 PM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 120 (357565)
10-19-2006 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by crashfrog
10-19-2006 3:42 PM


Re: No easy answers
I don't know why, but haven't you noticed that there's no universe we're aware of where there isn't gravity, electromagnetism, matter, energy, etc?
Well, call me crazy but there is only one universe in known reality, hence, the prefix 'uni,' as in 'one.' But now that you mention it, along with String theory comes the question of multiverses which are now being toyed with by various mathematicians and whatnot.
quote:
Well, according to Einstein, he was convinved that God does not play dice.
As it turned out, he was wrong. Not surprising, really - it wasn't exactly his field of expertise. Even Einstein was not infallible.
Of course he isn't infallible, but what does it have to do with you claiming that God play's dice? I was merely showing that it was Einstein who made that pronouncement and that he said that he was convinced that God does NOT play dice.
We don't know that the "variables" you refer to are actually all that variable. We absolutely don't know what forms of life are possible or impossible under alternate values of those variables, if alternate values can even exist.
Hence why they are called laws. They have never been known to be anything other than physical constants. The better question is why there should be physical laws at all.
What you're asking is akin to asking why the tea inside the teacup is so coincidentally shaped exactly like the inside of a teacup. Look, if the initial conditions of the universe are so apparently "fine-tuned" for life as we know it, why is life as we know it such a rare occurance in the universe? It does, after all, exist on one unremarkable planet orbiting an unremarkable star in a completely unremarkable spiral galaxy. I mean it seems pretty obvious to me that the universe is a place astronomically hostile to life as we know it, not a place fine-tuned to be its cradle.
Though I liked your analogy it ultimately fails on this occasion because the tea is simply conforming to rules of the cup. The tea is behaving the way we'd expect it to inside the cup. So, it really isn't remarkable at all, nor would that be analagous to the debate we are having currently. As for the earth being unremarkable in a hostile universe, that is precisely part of the argument of the anthropic principle. If there was a change in earth's placement within the universe, by maybe 1 part in 1015 difference would be disasterous. Life couldn't be possible.
A number of new arguments against the anthropic principle is, as I stated above, the multiverse theory, in that there are infinite or near infinite universes where through probabalistic determination, one of them is bound to be as finely tuned as it is. At this point, its an indefensible argument because there is literally no raw data on it outside of, perhaps, an mathematical abstract. And to put in to perspective, its like someone using the "Godditit" argument. Something of that brevity would just emasculate science. While it may be fun to toy around with the notions, its just not something anyone has to go by.
Here's a paper on the subject that I've always enjoyed:
System Unavailable
What exactly did you want me to glean from the article?
You don't think you're acting superior when you refer to atheists as "fools"? You don't find that language condescending?
Not compared to some of your language. Again, it bespeaks of an arrogance, not about their intellect. If you were offended by my usage of King David's words, I apologize.
I don't know about you but my mother taught me a little better than that.
She sounds like a wonderful lady.

"There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility." -Theodore Roosevelt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by crashfrog, posted 10-19-2006 3:42 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by nwr, posted 10-19-2006 8:04 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 38 by mick, posted 10-19-2006 8:19 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 81 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-20-2006 1:29 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 99 by crashfrog, posted 10-20-2006 3:46 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1240 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 35 of 120 (357568)
10-19-2006 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by jar
10-19-2006 7:14 PM


Re: This is important
Jar,
If I knew you in real life I would cry for your well-being.
quote:
We are learning why atoms have the shape they do,
This is simply dishonest and unsupported.
You need to take some time to reflect upon my words.
I mean no disrespect.

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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1240 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 36 of 120 (357573)
10-19-2006 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Hyroglyphx
10-19-2006 11:09 AM


quote:
That's the not the answer he's looking for. Large bodies of mass attract smaller bodies. That's the observation. But he wants to know things, (from what I can gather), why there is even an orbit at all. How are these rules initialized is what I think he's really asking. You'd have to ask him directly.
This is fairly accurate. This is important. My reputation among my friends here may diminish but this is a trivial asset. I will not relent in regards to this concept and discussion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-19-2006 11:09 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-20-2006 12:39 AM Trump won has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 37 of 120 (357575)
10-19-2006 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Hyroglyphx
10-19-2006 7:20 PM


Re: No easy answers
The better question is why there should be physical laws at all.
If there weren't any laws, we would have to invent some.
Come to think of it, that's exactly what happened, as already mentioned by Nutcase in Message 2.

Compassionate conservatism - bringing you a kinder, gentler torture chamber

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-19-2006 7:20 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-20-2006 11:31 AM nwr has replied

  
mick
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 38 of 120 (357577)
10-19-2006 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Hyroglyphx
10-19-2006 7:20 PM


Re: No easy answers
nemesis_juggernaut writes:
If there was a change in earth's placement within the universe, by maybe 1 part in 1015 difference would be disasterous. Life couldn't be possible.
That doesn't sound right.
The earth is 93,000,000 miles from the sun.
There are 1609.344 meters per mile, and 1000 millimetres per meter
(93000000/(1015)) * 1 609.344 * 1000 = 0.057 millimeters
Are you saying that if the earth was one twentieth of a millimeter closer or further away from the sun, life would be impossible? Or do you mean that if the earth was moved 10-15 of the total size of the universe, life would be impossible? I agree in the latter case, because Earth would then be way out of the solar system. 10-15 of the total size of the universe is a big, big number.
Mick
Edited by M, : No reason given.
Edited by M, : dodgy maths

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-19-2006 7:20 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 39 of 120 (357578)
10-19-2006 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Trump won
10-18-2006 10:54 PM


Re: suggested reading here: post 14, 23, and 32
-messanjah of one
Read these questions carefully before replying, they require much thought and (to add the controversy) have no answer from a Godless mindset.
There is no mindset wherein an answer is forthcoming though. If you take the position that God made them you still have yet to explain your question
How does a law come about?
God making them explains nothing since you need to demonstrate that God did indeed do so and therein prove that God exists to do so. Also the means by which God makes the laws the way they are are a seperate issue from whether God did in the first place.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Trump won, posted 10-18-2006 10:54 PM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1240 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 40 of 120 (357580)
10-19-2006 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by sidelined
10-19-2006 8:20 PM


Re: suggested reading here: post 14, 23, and 32
I appreciate your argument sidelined. My next step is to form a teleogical proof for God. But this is not to not continue to underline the concept expressed here.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 41 of 120 (357585)
10-19-2006 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Trump won
10-19-2006 8:27 PM


Re: suggested reading here: post 14, 23, and 32
My next step is to form a teleogical proof for God.
It's a waste of effort. Those proofs never work anyway.
The whole point of such a proof is to bamboozle people (perhaps including yourself) by hiding the circularity where it is hard to find. But such proofs are always circular if you look hard enough.

Compassionate conservatism - bringing you a kinder, gentler torture chamber

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Trump won, posted 10-19-2006 8:27 PM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 42 of 120 (357586)
10-19-2006 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by mick
10-19-2006 8:19 PM


made up numbers
NJ writes:
If there was a change in earth's placement within the universe, by maybe 1 part in 1015 difference would be disasterous. Life couldn't be possible.
to which you reasonably replied:
quote:
That doesn't sound right.
Lots of the Biblical Creationists sites love to just make stuff up and it is possible that NJ actually took his figures from such a site.
Truth is the earth is closest to the sun in January and farthest from the sun in July. At our closest we are about 91 million miles away from the sun and at our farthest about 94 million miles so we already see a difference of over 3%.
And even that says absolutely nothing about the limits where life would be possible. As usual, all that is is another argument from incredulity combined with just plain ignorance of the facts.
So far we know of NO laws governing life. We know of one example that does work, but don't really have a clue as to what other possibilities there might be.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1240 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 43 of 120 (357588)
10-19-2006 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by nwr
10-19-2006 8:38 PM


Re: suggested reading here: post 14, 23, and 32
NWR,
I must explore this avenue.
quote:
Those proofs never work anyway.
I know for sure that I cannot deal in absolutes.

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DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 44 of 120 (357592)
10-19-2006 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Trump won
10-19-2006 7:00 PM


Re: This is important
Generally, objects with more weight have a greater mass. Why is this the way it is?
Not generally, absolutley now watch someone pull out some weird sub-atomic stuff that contradicts this.
F=ma, mass and weight are directly proportional, if the object's mass increases so does it's weight. it's simple physics.

Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Trump won, posted 10-19-2006 7:00 PM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1240 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 45 of 120 (357596)
10-19-2006 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by DrJones*
10-19-2006 9:23 PM


Re: This is important
I understand this elementary point (took physics) but I am questioning the very essence of why things are the way they are.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Nutcase, posted 10-20-2006 12:04 AM Trump won has replied
 Message 52 by PaulK, posted 10-20-2006 2:46 AM Trump won has replied

  
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