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Author Topic:   note: this discussion has turned for the better;read pgs/Where do the laws come from?
RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 61 of 120 (357681)
10-20-2006 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by iano
10-20-2006 9:19 AM


Re: No easy answers
Iano writes:
Empiricism has no solid grounds by defintion - there is nothing possible outside empiricism to verify that philosophy is true.
Not so faith.
Which faith, Iano?
Iano writes:
You have no grounds to call NJ arrogant.
Which faith?
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by iano, posted 10-20-2006 9:19 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by iano, posted 10-20-2006 9:36 AM RickJB has replied
 Message 68 by Archer Opteryx, posted 10-20-2006 12:02 PM RickJB has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 62 of 120 (357683)
10-20-2006 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by RickJB
10-20-2006 9:29 AM


Re: No easy answers
Your missing the point. You can have no grounds given empiricism, per definition, can have no grounds. Faith can, per definition, have grounds.
All it takes is for
a) God to exist
b) God to communicate with man.
It can have grounds and it can make the statements without being necessarily arrogant. You said it was arrogant which denied the possibility of grounds.
One can say you are being arrogant - for you can have no grounds. But one cannot be so sure in the opposite direction.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by RickJB, posted 10-20-2006 9:29 AM RickJB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by RickJB, posted 10-20-2006 10:11 AM iano has not replied
 Message 67 by Archer Opteryx, posted 10-20-2006 11:56 AM iano has replied

  
RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 63 of 120 (357690)
10-20-2006 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by iano
10-20-2006 9:36 AM


Re: No easy answers
Iano writes:
Your missing the point. You can have no grounds given empiricism, per definition, can have no grounds. Faith can, per definition, have grounds.
All it takes is for
a) God to exist
b) God to communicate with man.
It can have grounds and it can make the statements without being necessarily arrogant. You said it was arrogant which denied the possibility of grounds.
One can say you are being arrogant - for you can have no grounds. But one cannot be so sure in the opposite direction.
Iano, it is you who has totally missed the point. I freely admit I have no "grounds" for any assumptions about the unknown.
You, like NJ, on the other hand continue to stubbornly assert that your faith is "the answer" because you think it is "the answer". A classic circular argument.
You could not have demonstrated my point in a more elegant way!
You also dodged the question about which faith you were referring to. There are any number of ideas regarding those things which lie beyond our current understanding. So I'll ask again, which faith do you mean?
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.

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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 64 of 120 (357706)
10-20-2006 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by nwr
10-19-2006 8:04 PM


Re: No easy answers
If there weren't any laws, we would have to invent some.
Come to think of it, that's exactly what happened, as already mentioned by Nutcase in Message 2.
We're speaking about physical laws, not human laws. How could we invent laws of physics? That would insinuate that we had some sort of control over nature. But maybe I'm not understanding your rationale. If no, would you clarify for me?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by nwr, posted 10-19-2006 8:04 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 65 of 120 (357708)
10-20-2006 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by mick
10-19-2006 8:19 PM


Re: No easy answers
The earth is 93,000,000 miles from the sun.
There are 1609.344 meters per mile, and 1000 millimetres per meter
(93000000/(1015)) * 1 609.344 * 1000 = 0.057 millimeters
Are you saying that if the earth was one twentieth of a millimeter closer or further away from the sun, life would be impossible?
Obviously not. I should have used a larger exponent. I guess 1 in 10 is a very small fraction-- too small to have any meaning in a vast universe. Thanks for doing the maths Mick.
Mick

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 66 of 120 (357712)
10-20-2006 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Hyroglyphx
10-20-2006 11:34 AM


Re: No easy answers
Obviously not. I should have used a larger exponent.
Maybe you should do some research instead of making up your own facts? Here's a basic sanity check you can do, for instance. The Earth's orbit around the Sun is elliptical, which means that the distance from the Earth to the Sun - which you said could not vary without making life impossible - changes throughout the year.
Look up the total change between apogee and perigee. (Those may not be the right terms, actually.) That number represents a floor for your estimate of how much closer or farther away from the Sun the Earth would have to be to prevent the existence of life on Earth.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by nwr, posted 10-20-2006 12:23 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3597 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 67 of 120 (357714)
10-20-2006 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by iano
10-20-2006 9:36 AM


Re: No easy answers
iano writes:
Faith can, per definition, have grounds.
All it takes is for
a) God to exist
b) God to communicate with man.
WRONG!
It doesn't take that at all.
All it takes is for
1. Tao to exist
2. Human beings to have access to Tao.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by iano, posted 10-20-2006 9:36 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by iano, posted 10-20-2006 12:08 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3597 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 68 of 120 (357719)
10-20-2006 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by RickJB
10-20-2006 9:29 AM


Re: No easy answers
Iano writes:
Empiricism has no solid grounds by defintion - there is nothing possible outside empiricism to verify that philosophy is true.
Not so faith.
RickJB:
Which faith, Iano?
Mine, of course. See Message 67.
Taoism thanks you, Iano.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by RickJB, posted 10-20-2006 9:29 AM RickJB has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 69 of 120 (357721)
10-20-2006 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Archer Opteryx
10-20-2006 11:56 AM


Re: No easy answers
Tao will do fine if tao can do the same thing as God. No illogic there.
Ta.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Archer Opteryx, posted 10-20-2006 11:56 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 70 of 120 (357730)
10-20-2006 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by crashfrog
10-20-2006 11:52 AM


Distance from sun
Look up the total change between apogee and perigee. (Those may not be the right terms, actually.)
Try "aphelion" and "perihelion".
I don't quite agree with your reasoning. If the earth were to settle in a circular orbit at current aphelion, things might get a bit cold.

Compassionate conservatism - bringing you a kinder, gentler torture chamber

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by crashfrog, posted 10-20-2006 11:52 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by jar, posted 10-20-2006 12:55 PM nwr has replied
 Message 80 by crashfrog, posted 10-20-2006 1:17 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3597 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 71 of 120 (357735)
10-20-2006 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by iano
10-20-2006 12:08 PM


Re: No easy answers
iano writes:
Tao will do fine if tao can do the same thing as God. No illogic there.
Of course it does. Your argument is that faith in God provides grounds for confidence in investigation.
Faith in anything provides such grounds. Because all faiths provide them, one faith is as good as another by this criterion.
How compelling do you find grounds arrived at by means of a faith you do not profess?
_

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by iano, posted 10-20-2006 12:08 PM iano has not replied

  
Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 72 of 120 (357738)
10-20-2006 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Nutcase
10-20-2006 12:04 AM


Re: This is important
So what is your point?
This is not a valid answer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Nutcase, posted 10-20-2006 12:04 AM Nutcase has not replied

  
Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 73 of 120 (357739)
10-20-2006 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Hyroglyphx
10-20-2006 12:39 AM


Re: Getting closer to undercovering what Messenjah wants
I thought I have articulated my inquiry quite clearly.
I will review what I have written.

This message is a reply to:
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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 74 of 120 (357740)
10-20-2006 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by sidelined
10-20-2006 12:54 AM


Re: This is important
I admire your knowledge on the subject but I don't believe it is pertinent and I don't find error in my statement. Obviously weight and mass are two different measurements.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 75 of 120 (357741)
10-20-2006 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by nwr
10-20-2006 12:23 PM


Re: Distance from sun
I don't quite agree with your reasoning. If the earth were to settle in a circular orbit at current aphelion, things might get a bit cold.
I'm not sure I understand your reasoning for that. I was under the impression that tilt would play a bigger difference than distance within the range of our current orbit. Is there a signigicant difference between winters in the northern and southern hemisphere?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by nwr, posted 10-20-2006 12:23 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
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