2. Water boarding is not torture. It causes no long lasting ill effects and is not life threatening. These people are the people who would torture, if given the opportunity......real torture, like gouging out eyes, cutting off limbs, cutting out the tongue, crucifixion, and what ever else one can imagine, all of which either permanently maims or kills.
Most tortures don't leave permanent lasting damage. It lets the torture continue indefinitely that way. The human body can feel an immense amount of pain without ever leaving a mark or putting ones life in danger.
The mere act of being willing to cause pain and panic and other physical/emotional trauma to a human being to extract information whose accuracy will be dubious at best is an immoral act on the scale of a crime against humanity. It is, in fact, an act of terrorism.
I presume that the two adjacent messages of yours are connected, Buzsaw. I will therefore consider myself to be responding to both. According to Amnesty International 60-90% of the gitmo population was inncent of any crime. They were merely in the wrong place, at the wrong time. The very existence of the prison is an affront to law and common decency. As to your fear-mongering, that is typical of someone who wants blind emotion, not reason, to prevail.
You like the taste of that AI (Amnesty International) kool-aid, don't you, Monkey Boy. Hasn't anyone gotten through to you yet that it is toxic?
After making this startling discovery, Keraly proceeded to investigate Amnesty International headquarters in London where he discovered that Amnesty director Derek Roebuck was an active Communist. In his study of thousands of files, he discovered such things as terrorists, working with Ugandan dictator Idi Amin listed as “victims of political oppression.” At the same time, Amnesty had done nothing to investigate the torture and concentration camps of the Soviet Union, Cambodia, or Cuba. In fact, the “human rights” group had little to say at the time regarding leftist abuses occurring in the late 1970’s. This was a time when the world leftist behemoth was quite active in its policy of liquidation and support for international terrorism.
Amnesty International hasn’t changed it stripes much in the ensuing decades with their support of such things as the Bolshevik inspired “U.N. Declaration of Human Rights,” with its call for a transfer of capital from the productive western societies to third world dictators and its guarantee of the right to employment, a typical Stalinist idea. Now they are championing the cause of Muslims who have experienced “discrimination” in the US since Sept. 11 and the al Quada prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. Their website “In the Wake of September 11, 2001, Justice and Human Rights” is heavy with concern regarding “Upholding international human rights and humanitarian law as the US responds to the attacks” while it says nothing about the leftist Palestinian Authority and its terrorist offshoots. As is par for the course, America is under the microscope while the politically oppressive but generally leftist Islamic world is ignored.
BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
I daresay that torture runs afoul of that pesky Golden Rule deal, too. Ah well, good thing for warmongering christians that they are apparently relieved from all teachings of Christ if it's governmental policy, according to the words of the prophet Buzsaw. Unless, of course, it's a governmental policy that you disagree with, like for instance giving to the poor. Then it's socialism that will bring our country to its knees.
Down the rabbit hole with right wing apologetics.
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
I'm really glad you all share the sentiment for Christians. See, the principle of the issue is that Christianity is founded on morality and conducive rule. On that note, you "proud Americans" should be tickled, your knight in shining armor, obomba, signed the reverse of the ban, keeping federal money from funding abortion murder clinics. So now, my Damned tax dollars go to paying for the slaughter of innocent children. As well as other stupid pointless things the government does.
That's just grand! But I'm not surprised, I knew that foul up would start making reckless, stupid decisions the moment he took office. "warmongering Christians", try "ignorant atheists, that see no value in human life". Not only is abortion wrong, it's sick.
quote:"warmongering Christians", try "ignorant atheists, that see no value in human life". Not only is abortion wrong, it's sick.
So, apparently having no defense for warmongering christians, you go off on a completely different tangent and bring up a topic, abortion, that has nothing to do with the thread. Swing and a miss on the tu quoque.
Please no further abortion talk, ok?
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
2. Water boarding is not torture. It causes no long lasting ill effects and is not life threatening. These people are the people who would torture, if given the opportunity......real torture, like gouging out eyes, cutting off limbs, cutting out the tongue, crucifixion, and what ever else one can imagine, all of which either permanently maims or kills.
Bullshit. Waterboarding IS TORTURE! This practice goes against the UCMJ (Articles 93 and 128), the Army Field Manual on interrogation techniques, the Geneva Convention and the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
Here is an example of waterboarding:
and part of the Senate hearing on waterboarding:
John McCain on waterboarding:
also:
John McCain writes:
That is why I fought for passage of the Detainee Treatment Act (DTA), which applied the Army Field Manual on interrogation to all military detainees and barred cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment of any detainee held by any agency. In 2006, I insisted that the Military Commissions Act (MCA) preserve the undiluted protections of Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions for our personnel in the field. And I have expressed repeatedly my view that the controversial technique known as “waterboarding” constitutes nothing less than illegal torture.
Malcolm Wrightson Nance, retired U.S. Navy Senior Chief Petty, security consultant in Iraq, and counterterrorism specialist and instructor who taught prisoner of war and terrorist hostage survival at the Navy's Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape (SERE) school in California stated this:
Senior Chief Nance writes:
In my case, the technique was so fast and professional that I didn't know what was happening until the water entered my nose and throat," Nance testified yesterday at a House oversight hearing on torture and enhanced interrogation techniques. "It then pushes down into the trachea and starts the process of respiratory degradation. It is an overwhelming experience that induces horror and triggers frantic survival instincts. As the event unfolded, I was fully conscious of what was happening: I was being tortured."
Evan Wallach, one of the nation's most foremost experts on war crimes and the law of war, member of the International Law of War Association, Adjunct Professor in Law of War at New York Law School and Brooklyn Law School, federal judge of the United States Court of International Trade, served in the United States Army Judge Advocate General's Corps in the International Affairs Division of the Office of TJAG at The Pentagon during the Gulf War where he assisted in advising on the law of war and investigating war crimes committed by Iraqi leaders, Judge Advocate General in the Nevada Army National Guard with the rank of major, and highly decorated (Bronze Star and Vietnam Gallantry Cross with Palm) for his service during the Vietnam War states the following:
Evan Wallach in the 'Columbia Journal of Transnational Law' writes:
All of these trials elicited compelling descriptions of water torture from its victims, and resulted in severe punishment for its perpetrators
and
Evan Wallach in 'Waterboarding Used to Be a Crime' in the Washington Post writes:
As a JAG in the Nevada National Guard, I used to lecture the soldiers of the 72nd Military Police Company every year about their legal obligations when they guarded prisoners. I'd always conclude by saying, "I know you won't remember everything I told you today, but just remember what your mom told you: Do unto others as you would have others do unto you." That's a pretty good standard for life and for the law, and even though I left the unit in 1995, I like to think that some of my teaching had carried over when the 72nd refused to participate in misconduct at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison.
Sometimes, though, the questions we face about detainees and interrogation get more specific. One such set of questions relates to "waterboarding."
That term is used to describe several interrogation techniques. The victim may be immersed in water, have water forced into the nose and mouth, or have water poured onto material placed over the face so that the liquid is inhaled or swallowed. The media usually characterize the practice as "simulated drowning." That's incorrect. To be effective, waterboarding is usually real drowning that simulates death. That is,
the victim experiences the sensations of drowning: struggle, panic, breath-holding, swallowing, vomiting, taking water into the lungs and, eventually, the same feeling of not being able to breathe that one experiences after being punched in the gut. The main difference is that the drowning process is halted. According to those who have studied waterboarding's effects, it can cause severe psychological trauma, such as panic attacks, for years.
The United States knows quite a bit about waterboarding. The U.S. government -- whether acting alone before domestic courts, commissions and courts-martial or as part of the world community -- has not only condemned the use of water torture but has severely punished those who applied it.
After World War II, we convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American and Allied prisoners of war. At the trial of his captors, then-Lt. Chase J. Nielsen, one of the 1942 Army Air Forces officers who flew in the Doolittle Raid and was captured by the Japanese, testified: "I was given several types of torture. . . . I was given what they call the water cure." He was asked what he felt when the Japanese soldiers poured the water. "Well, I felt more or less like I was drowning," he replied, "just gasping between life and death."
Nielsen's experience was not unique. Nor was the prosecution of his captors. After Japan surrendered, the United States organized and participated in the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, generally called the Tokyo War Crimes Trials. Leading members of Japan's military and government elite were charged, among their many other crimes, with torturing Allied military personnel and civilians. The principal proof upon which their torture convictions were based was conduct that we would now call waterboarding.
In this case from the tribunal's records, the victim was a prisoner in the Japanese-occupied Dutch East Indies:
A towel was fixed under the chin and down over the face. Then many buckets of water were poured into the towel so that the water gradually reached the mouth and rising further eventually also the nostrils, which resulted in his becoming unconscious and collapsing like a person drowned. This procedure was sometimes repeated 5-6 times in succession.
The United States (like Britain, Australia and other Allies) pursued lower-ranking Japanese war criminals in trials before their own tribunals. As a general rule, the testimony was similar to Nielsen's. Consider this account from a Filipino waterboarding victim:
Q: Was it painful?
A: Not so painful, but one becomes unconscious. Like drowning in the water.
Q: Like you were drowning?
A: Drowning -- you could hardly breathe.
Here's the testimony of two Americans imprisoned by the Japanese:
They would lash me to a stretcher then prop me up against a table with my head down. They would then pour about two gallons of water from a pitcher into my nose and mouth until I lost consciousness.
And from the second prisoner: They laid me out on a stretcher and strapped me on. The stretcher was then stood on end with my head almost touching the floor and my feet in the air. . . . They then began pouring water over my face and at times it was almost impossible for me to breathe without sucking in water.
As a result of such accounts, a number of Japanese prison-camp officers and guards were convicted of torture that clearly violated the laws of war. They were not the only defendants convicted in such cases. As far back as the U.S. occupation of the Philippines after the 1898 Spanish-American War, U.S. soldiers were court-martialed for using the "water cure" to question Filipino guerrillas.
More recently, waterboarding cases have appeared in U.S. district courts. One was a civil action brought by several Filipinos seeking damages against the estate of former Philippine president Ferdinand Marcos. The plaintiffs claimed they had been subjected to torture, including water torture. The court awarded $766 million in damages, noting in its findings that "the plaintiffs experienced human rights violations including, but not limited to . . . the water cure, where a cloth was placed over the detainee's mouth and nose, and water producing a drowning sensation."
In 1983, federal prosecutors charged a Texas sheriff and three of his deputies with violating prisoners' civil rights by forcing confessions. The complaint alleged that the officers conspired to "subject prisoners to a suffocating water torture ordeal in order to coerce confessions. This generally included the placement of a towel over the nose and mouth of the prisoner and the pouring of water in the towel until the prisoner began to move, jerk, or otherwise indicate that he was suffocating and/or drowning."
The four defendants were convicted, and the sheriff was sentenced to 10 years in prison.
We know that U.S. military tribunals and U.S. judges have examined certain types of water-based interrogation and found that they constituted torture. That's a lesson worth learning. The study of law is, after all, largely the study of history. The law of war is no different. This history should be of value to those who seek to understand what the law is -- as well as what it ought to be.
It is undeniable in the military that waterboarding is torture. For some reason the CIA thinks it has (of I should say had) a free pass on this but nearly every expert disagrees. It was a human rights crime in the past and it still is.
How the fuck do we expect other countries to treat our POW's humanely if we do not recipocate! It goes against everything that is noble and descent about this country. What are we fighting for, if we are no different in ideaology than them! That is John McCains stand on this and it is mine as well.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : Add more expert witness material on waterboarding
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Dr. Carl Sagan
1. Your points would be applicable to ordinary citizens, Taz. "You've been...." does not apply here. These are stealth warriors in a declared War On Terror, who do not identify themselves as soldiers in the war, but have so little regard for human life, including their own that they will go to any length, including their own death to kill as many other people as possible. They choose to be stealth.....let them be tried by stealth, if that's what it takes to avoid sending them back into society to kill, kill, kill free minded people like Americans.
You're missing my point completely. Let me repeat myself.
How do you know all the people at gitmo are terrorists? They haven't been told why they are being held. Their lawyers have never been given a chance to look at the supposed evidence for their guilt.
Again, how would you feel if you were captured by a foreign power, shipped to a foreign land far far away, and held indefinitely without ever told why you were captured in the first place?
If you don't want to answer that question, at least answer this question. Why not give them a trial? If you're so afraid of them getting back into the world, chain them down so they can't escape. But why not let them know why they're being held and let them have a chance at defending themselves in court?
2. Water boarding is not torture. It causes no long lasting ill effects and is not life threatening. These people are the people who would torture, if given the opportunity......real torture, like gouging out eyes, cutting off limbs, cutting out the tongue, crucifixion, and what ever else one can imagine, all of which either permanently maims or kills.
I'll take your word for it.
Now, answer the question. What is so horrible about (1) informing these people why they are being held captive, (2) letting their lawyers see the supposed evidence against them, and (3) giving them a chance to defend themselves in court?
Try to put yourself in their position, Buz. Wouldn't you want at least a chance to defend yourself?
Again, I'm not even saying we release them.
3. In wartime, America has always treated criminals who are not citizens and who have no American Constitutional rights, in such a manner that the war can be won, albeit, short of real torture, all the while our own have been consistently tortured by foreign powers. Our track record is such that the discomfort our prisoners are subjected to is not unduly oppressive. Gitmo is no exception.
Becareful there, buz. Starting to sound like a nazi.
Just because it's been done in the past doesn't make it right. You of all people should know that. Shame on you for even using this logical fallacy.
4. In war you do what you must do to survive and win.
Ok. Now, answer the question. Why is it such a horrible thing to let them see the evidence against them and allow them a chance to defend themselves?
When the Gitmo terrorist's eventually are released by BO, I hope they make good neighbors if one like the one who's now Ben Laden's right hand terrorist becomes your neighbor?
I really do hope that an ex-Gitmo detaineee becomes your neighbour. I hope that he is one of the many innocent victims that has indisputably been detained for no reason other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I also hope that you learn something from your new neighbour.
Let us all hope that the many innocent victims of Gitmo, victims who had committed no crime before their detention and who had no intention of committing any acts of terrorism, are not now so filled with hatred as a result of the injustices heaped upon them that they have become the very thing they were accused of being.
Let us also hope that the brothers, sons, uncles and nephews of those who were detained wrongly are not filled with hatred as a result of the hardship and loss heaped upon their families as a result of these unjustified imprisonments.
Let us hope that the very thing you support has not resulted in the very thing you fear.
I am not optimistic.
These are stealth warriors in a declared War On Terror, who do not identify themselves as soldiers in the war, but have so little regard for human life, including their own that they will go to any length, including their own death to kill as many other people as possible.
How can we differentiate a "stealth warrior" from an innocent citizen?
2. Water boarding is not torture. It causes no long lasting ill effects and is not life threatening. These people are the people who would torture, if given the opportunity......real torture, like gouging out eyes, cutting off limbs, cutting out the tongue, crucifixion, and what ever else one can imagine, all of which either permanently maims or kills.
Did the crucifixion of Jesus have any negative "long lasting effects" on Jesus.....? Taking the side of his father in paradise after death.
Was he not tortured?
This is perhaps another conversation. Perhaps the Sacrifice thread?
3. In wartime, America has always treated criminals who are not citizens and who have no American Constitutional rights, in such a manner that the war can be won, albeit, short of real torture, all the while our own have been consistently tortured by foreign powers. Our track record is such that the discomfort our prisoners are subjected to is not unduly oppressive. Gitmo is no exception.
Can you claim moral superiority over those you fight if you are no better than they are? Did we fight Nazi Germany because they were morally wrong? Or because they threatened our survival? Are we fighting for what is right or are we fighting for our own survival no matter what the price to ourselves and our values may be?
Which is more important?
4. In war you do what you must do to survive and win.
And thus went the justification of the "foreign powers" of which you speak who also committed atrocities in the name of necessity.
Fearful and compromised? Or determined and righteous?
So now, my Damned tax dollars go to paying for ...
Government services that, amazingly, allow you to make money to pay for taxes.
Once in government hands IT IS NOT YOUR MONEY - this is the biggest lies of the republican party, and the basis of a lot of false policies from the republicans.
When you buy a service from a company, once that money is in their hands IT IS NOT YOUR MONEY, and they can use it to fund anything they want to.
You need to pay for the government in order to make the money you make.
If you don't think this is true, try earning money without benefit an a single government service.
You can't.
So taxes are the way you pay for that service provided.
As well as other stupid pointless things the government does.
If you have suggestions for government programs that are not working, why not suggest a fix to Obama - he said that was one of his concerns.
Not only is abortion wrong, it's sick.
There are threads to talk about abortion if you want to, but you will be expected to have a rational reason to apply your beliefs to other people, rather than just an emotional knee-jerk response. Of course I would also expect you to support birth control and sex education so that the need for abortions are reduced.
I also expect you to be equally opposed to interfering with natural conception as done by birth clinics to provide children to people who cannot conceive naturally, especially when the genes come from someone else.
quote:Once in government hands IT IS NOT YOUR MONEY - this is the biggest lies of the republican party, and the basis of a lot of false policies from the republicans.
You can't lay that one solely at the feet of the Repugnantcans. I've heard plenty of left wing nuts complaint that they didn't want their tax money spent on the military. That sort of thing is an equal opportunity fallacy. I'd guess that right wing nuts get more use out of it, but it cuts across lines.
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
Imo, the military knows better who's innocent and who's not. What would be the military's motivation for rounding up innocents?
I can't believe how bad you just stepped in it, but stepped in it you just did.
How often in history have we heard this argument, the military, not the rule of civilians, knows best who is guilty and who is innocent.
Need I go through the litany of every example?
Buz, your apparent hatred of the enlightenment, democracy, human progress, and indeed human decency has now led you to to be an advocate of military dictatorship against not just the entire Constitution of the United States of America but also the American and all other people worldwide who live and prosper under the benefits of democracy.
Ask your god for mercy, for in this case as a US Army veteran, I have none.
Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon
The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza
yeah, like you're old enough to be paying tax...
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