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Author Topic:   On this day, let us all be proud of America
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 196 of 280 (496304)
01-27-2009 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Buzsaw
01-27-2009 8:35 AM


Re: Anti-Gitmo BO
So your response in the face of adversity is to compromise your values, why do you hate America and all that it stands for?

soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Buzsaw, posted 01-27-2009 8:35 AM Buzsaw has not replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 197 of 280 (496317)
01-27-2009 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Buzsaw
01-27-2009 12:04 AM


Re: Anti-Gitmo BO
quote:
The military picks these people up in all manners of situations. When the national security is at stake, suspects must be considered dangerous until cleared. This happens to relative few people, but when they are picked up for Gitmo, be assured there's a reason for concern to America's security.
...
The military is under the command of the executive branch of the government and the oversight of Congress. It's worked quite efficiently up until now. Time will tell about the future.
So you're perfectly comfortable to let the military do anything it wishes, as long as it's under an administration you approve of, but have misgivings when it's an administration you don't trust. Administrations of necessity must come and go, and there are certainly no guarantees that you will trust the next administration. Given these facts, any rational person would want the military fettered by general principals of fairness, justice and concern for human rights that would control it during all administrations. That you apparently think it's fine to trust the military to do what it will says a great deal about your rationality, don't you think?

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Buzsaw, posted 01-27-2009 12:04 AM Buzsaw has not replied

bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 198 of 280 (496324)
01-27-2009 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Buzsaw
01-27-2009 12:04 AM


Re: Anti-Gitmo BO
Likely in many cases the facts are classified info. If so, you, AI, nor some federal judge should not have access to them.
Information is classified for a number of reasons. Information involving judicial information would not necessarily limit access to a federal judge. The point of classification is so that anyone without the level of classification and a need to know the information will not have access to it. I spent a year in Korea as a custodian of classified documents. Before Joe Schmuck could gain access to the material, he had to have at least the level of clearance to the document and on my list of those who had the need to know this material. If either was not there, no access.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Buzsaw, posted 01-27-2009 12:04 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 199 of 280 (496325)
01-27-2009 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by kuresu
01-27-2009 3:18 AM


Koolaid (What Flavour is Your Tipple of Choice?)
Kerusu writes:
He's been using AI for Amnesty International (I mention this for your use of army intelligence in an earlier post). So when he accuses you of drinking their kool-aid (a powdered drink mix in the states that is really quite crappy), he is simply using a derogatory phrase. It means you've bought into positions, even if those positions happen to be right, and the phrase is used in conjunction with orgs or persons the user disagrees with. It also generally means the user thinks you are crazy.
I had never heard the phrase used until this presidential election, specifically the Barack Obama kool-aid.
Aha! All becomes clear. Thanks for the clarification. Yes I had assumed that AI meant "Army Intelligence" in this context.
I have dimly heard of Koolaid but never actually had the stuff.
I have heard of Amnesty International but am not sure why Buz keeps mentioning them in response to me. I claim to have no major insights or knowledge into what they do and have made no references to that organisation myself.
So his derogatory references are somewhat wasted on me........
Flies writes:
Well...to be even a bit more specific...when Buz refers to drinking the kool-aid (which I agree is quite crappy), he's relating the drinking of the beverage to the 1978 Jonestown mass suicides/murders, in which the followers of Jim Jones (leader of the Peoples Temple Agriculture Project, located in Guyana) drank a beverage (purported to be kool-aid...but it actually was not) laced with cyanide (along with a few others "additives"). There's no need to go into the details as to why this happened, as it's off topic, but thought you might like to know why Buz uses the term "Drinking the Kool-aid". He's basically accusing you of doing what your told to do by an "Authority figure", and drinking the poison without asking "why", or refusing to think for yourself.
Oh! Well if I am drinking Koolaid of any sort it certainly isn't Amnesty International Koolaid that I am drinking. I didn't even recognise the reference to this organisation until Kerusu made things clear.
I wonder what brand of Koolaid Buz is quaffing........?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by kuresu, posted 01-27-2009 3:18 AM kuresu has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-27-2009 7:45 PM Straggler has not replied

DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 200 of 280 (496334)
01-27-2009 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by Straggler
01-27-2009 6:25 PM


Re: Koolaid (What Flavour is Your Tipple of Choice?)
I have dimly heard of Koolaid but never actually had the stuff.
I have heard of Amnesty International but am not sure why Buz keeps mentioning them in response to me. I claim to have no major insights or knowledge into what they do and have made no references to that organisation myself.
So his derogatory references are somewhat wasted on me........
What is ironic is that the kool-aid driking references come from the Jones Town attrocity in which the fundamentalist Christian cult leader Jim Jones, after moving his congregation to Guyana, forced men, women and children to commit mass suicide by drinking a cyanide laced Kool-Aid like drink (actually called Flavor Aid).
So who is drinking the kool-aid there Buzz?

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Straggler, posted 01-27-2009 6:25 PM Straggler has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 201 of 280 (496342)
01-27-2009 8:23 PM


The Spiked Koolaid
Upthread someplace I specified what AI meant. One of my statements had "AI (Amnesty International." My apologies for assuming readers had read that. The "kool aid" term has been used on occasion by folks who are aware of Jonestown. Us old timeys forget about the yute who have been born since. Thanks to DA (Devil's Advocate) for clarifying as I've been out of town quite a bit lately.
The Muslim world's thousands who have lined up to blow themselves up for Allah have in a sense drank the Jonestown brand of koolaid laced with death.
The koolaid analogy is fitting for Barrak Hussein Obama's agenda of ending the War On Terror in the middle of the conflict. That koolaid advances the death to America (and of Israel) goal of Hammas and other Islamic Jehadists who openly supported the Barrack Hussein Obama campaign and danced in the streets when he won.
That one of Barrack Hussein Obama's first acts as president was to end the War On Terror should be a loud and clear message to the koolaid drinkers who are ever so proud of America for this day when Hammas's candidate with his army of Acorn far left activists took over the Executive branch of The Great Satan.
I see nearly 5 billion of Barrack Hussein Obama's hundreds of billions stimulous package are earmarked for Barrack Hussein Obama's neo-pseudo-political army division, Acorn so as to finance Barrack Hussein Obama's re-election in '12 and his socialist agenda for his tenure of office.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by DrJones*, posted 01-27-2009 8:55 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 205 by bluescat48, posted 01-28-2009 12:02 AM Buzsaw has not replied

DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 202 of 280 (496349)
01-27-2009 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by Buzsaw
01-27-2009 8:23 PM


Re: The Spiked Koolaid
That one of Barrack Hussein Obama's first acts as president was to end the War On Terror
When did that happen Buz? I don't recall seeing the US Troops pull out of Iraq or Afghanistan, unless of course you're just making shit up.

soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Buzsaw, posted 01-27-2009 8:23 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by Buzsaw, posted 01-27-2009 9:45 PM DrJones* has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 203 of 280 (496364)
01-27-2009 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by DrJones*
01-27-2009 8:55 PM


Re: The Spiked Koolaid
DrJones writes:
When did that happen Buz? I don't recall seeing the US Troops pull out of Iraq or Afghanistan, unless of course you're just making shit up.
What he did was to essentially end the Bush declared War on Terror via the CIA, etc and implemented a process of negotiating a peas with the terrorists which is pie in the sky.
The following article by Dana Priest explains how the CIA has essentially been prohibited from progressing with the necessary intelligence operatives needful to wage and win the War On Terror.
I could not get up a link to the article. The best I could do is to link the home page of the Post.
http://media3.washingtonpost.com
By Dana Priest
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, January 23, 2009; Page A01
President Obama yesterday eliminated the most controversial tools employed by his predecessor against terrorism suspects. With the stroke of his pen, he effectively declared an end to the "war on terror," as President George W. Bush had defined it, signaling to the world that the reach of the U.S. government in battling its enemies will not be limitless.
This Story
ANALYSIS: Bush's 'War' On Terror Comes to a Sudden End
Obama Reverses Bush Policies On Detention and Interrogation
Obama Plans to Close Guantanamo Prison
While Obama says he has no plans to diminish counter terrorism operations abroad, the notion that a president can circumvent long-standing U.S. laws simply by declaring war was halted by executive order in the Oval Office.
Key components of the secret structure developed under Bush are being swept away: The military's Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, facility, where the rights of habeas corpus and due process had been denied detainees, will close, and the CIA is now prohibited from maintaining its own overseas prisons. And in a broad swipe at the Bush administration's lawyers, Obama nullified every legal order and opinion on interrogations issued by any lawyer in the executive branch after Sept. 11, 2001.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by DrJones*, posted 01-27-2009 8:55 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by DrJones*, posted 01-27-2009 10:08 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 206 by RAZD, posted 01-28-2009 1:34 AM Buzsaw has replied

DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 204 of 280 (496367)
01-27-2009 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by Buzsaw
01-27-2009 9:45 PM


Re: The Spiked Koolaid
So closing down secret prisons and prohibiting torture = Ending the war on terror? What a load of shit. Again I have to ask since you're pro-torture and anti-rights, why do you hate America so much?

soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Buzsaw, posted 01-27-2009 9:45 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Buzsaw, posted 01-28-2009 10:01 AM DrJones* has replied

bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 205 of 280 (496389)
01-28-2009 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by Buzsaw
01-27-2009 8:23 PM


Re: The Spiked Koolaid
That one of Barrack Hussein Obama's first acts as president was to end the War On Terror
No to end Bush's illegal war on terror.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Buzsaw, posted 01-27-2009 8:23 PM Buzsaw has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 206 of 280 (496392)
01-28-2009 1:34 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by Buzsaw
01-27-2009 9:45 PM


The Spiked Koolaid Acid Test
Hey Buz, still having trouble with those conspiracy theories I see.
What he did was to essentially end the Bush declared War on Terror via the CIA, etc and implemented a process of negotiating a peas with the terrorists which is pie in the sky.
Let's look at the facts, not the hype:
Obama Signs Order to Close Prison at Guantanamo Bay
quote:
President Barack Obama ordered the U.S. prison camp for suspected terrorists at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, closed within a year and banned intelligence agencies from using the harshest interrogation techniques.
The president also formed an interagency task force to recommend options for the detention and questioning of enemy combatants, and he ordered the Central Intelligence Agency to close any secret prisons that may still be operating. The orders make good on Obama’s campaign promises and reflect his determination to quickly reshape U.S. policy in the war against terrorism.
Reshape U.S. policy in the war against terrorism is not ending it.
quote:
The message that we are sending around the world is that the United States intends to prosecute the ongoing struggle against violence and terrorism,” Obama said after signing the orders, “and we are going to do so effectively, and we are going to do so in a manner that is consistent with our values and our ideals.
The only difference is that he is going to do so legally, in a manner consistent with US values and ideals, rather than by ignoring the Constitution, the Geneva Convention and many treaties signed by the US for treatment of prisoners.
If you have a problem with that, then you have a problem with Constitution, the Geneva Convention and many treaties signed by the US for treatment of prisoners, and not with Obama.
You also need to explain how the Botch misAdministration's sacrificing of American ideals and ignoring the Constitution, the Geneva Convention and many treaties signed by the US for treatment of prisoners is a good thing.
Obama cancels some of Bush's controversial policies (and "controversial" is putting it mildly ... try illegal):
quote:
Obama signed executive orders that commanded the closing of the detention center in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, outlawed aggressive interrogation techniques such as waterboarding on suspected terrorists and shut down secret CIA prisons.
He then sped to the State Department to watch as Secretary of State Hillary Clinton dispatched two high-profile envoys to trouble spots, former Sen. George Mitchell to the Middle East and former United Nations Ambassador Richard Holbrooke to Afghanistan and Pakistan.
Obama said that his actions would make Americans safer, restore a tradition of honoring the rights even of suspected terrorists to be treated humanely and start winning back respect overseas.
"It is precisely our ideals that give us the strength and the moral high ground to be able to effectively deal with the unthinking violence that we see emanating from terrorist organizations around the world," he added. "We intend to win this fight. We're going to win it on our terms."
That doesn't sound like ending it either, nor does it sound like seeking a peace settlement with terrorists.
Did you listen to his Inauguration Address?
quote:
We are the keepers of this legacy. Guided by these principles once more, we can meet those new threats that demand even greater effort ” even greater cooperation and understanding between nations. We will begin to responsibly leave Iraq to its people, and forge a hard-earned peace in Afghanistan. With old friends and former foes, we will work tirelessly to lessen the nuclear threat, and roll back the specter of a warming planet. We will not apologize for our way of life, nor will we waver in its defense, and for those who seek to advance their aims by inducing terror and slaughtering innocents, we say to you now that our spirit is stronger and cannot be broken; you cannot outlast us, and we will defeat you.
That also does not look like backing down from fighting terrorists, rather it looks like focusing on the actual terrorists rather than on Iraq.
The following article by Dana Priest explains how the CIA has essentially been prohibited from progressing with the necessary intelligence operatives needful to wage and win the War On Terror.
Curiously all he has done is end the illegal procedures, he has not ordered the CIA to "stand down" or any other misrepresentation of his policy.
Will you continue to believe fearmongering hype or reality? Time will tell, but in the meantime stay away from the acid man.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : add

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Buzsaw, posted 01-27-2009 9:45 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by Buzsaw, posted 01-28-2009 10:20 AM RAZD has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 207 of 280 (496445)
01-28-2009 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by DrJones*
01-27-2009 10:08 PM


Re: Who Hates America?
DrJones writes:
why do you hate America so much?
The question is, why are you, along with our new president, more concerned about the welfare of America's ruthless and lawless arch enemies, who will commit suicide to destroy America, than you are of the welfare and safety of American citizens, American homes, American institutions and America's cities?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by DrJones*, posted 01-27-2009 10:08 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Granny Magda, posted 01-28-2009 10:12 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 218 by DrJones*, posted 01-28-2009 2:44 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 208 of 280 (496446)
01-28-2009 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 207 by Buzsaw
01-28-2009 10:01 AM


Re: Who Hates America?
Aaargh!
quote:
The question is, why are you, along with our new president, more concerned about the welfare of America's ruthless and lawless arch enemies, who will commit suicide to destroy America, than you are of the welfare and safety of American citizens, American homes, American institutions and America's cities?
Yet again buz, the question is how do you know that these people are your enemies? How do you know that they are willing to blow themselves up? Simply because they are at Guantanamo? They haven't even been charged with anything for the most part, so how do you claim to know that are all suicide bombers?
No-one on this thread is against protecting America and that goes for those of us who are not American too. We are concerned that indiscriminately rounding people up and keeping them incommunicado, without charge, without legal representation and without the opportunity to clear their names hinders the "War in Terror" more than it helps.
Just out of interest; I'm a foreign national. Would you be content for me to be arrested, dragged to God-knows-where and held without charge?
Mutate and Survive

"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Buzsaw, posted 01-28-2009 10:01 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by kuresu, posted 01-28-2009 10:20 AM Granny Magda has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 209 of 280 (496447)
01-28-2009 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by RAZD
01-28-2009 1:34 AM


Re: The Spiked Koolaid Acid Test
RAZD writes:
Curiously all he has done is end the illegal procedures, he has not ordered the CIA to "stand down" or any other misrepresentation of his policy.
RAZD, consider the following:
1. No enemy nation on earth has been treated their prisoners as civilly as America treats our prisoners and that includes the terrorist slippery stealth fanatics who we are dealing with in the current unique War on Terror.
2. America, and in fact, the world at large has never in history faced such a formidible stealth enemy who's own lives and the lives of everyone else has no value in their thinking.
3. This enemy's target is not the military perse. It is the hapless, defenseless innocent men, women and children citizens going about their business in the offices, the markets, the schools and the hospitals.
4. Kindly treatment is totally ineffective in intelligence operations necessary to seek out the cells and operatives of such an enemy.
5. No treatment at Gitmo has been life threatening or designed to permanently maim the prisoners.
6. The CIA's priority, as it should be has been America's survival first and foremost.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by RAZD, posted 01-28-2009 1:34 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by kuresu, posted 01-28-2009 10:27 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 213 by Granny Magda, posted 01-28-2009 10:57 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 214 by Shield, posted 01-28-2009 11:07 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 223 by RAZD, posted 01-28-2009 11:02 PM Buzsaw has not replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 210 of 280 (496448)
01-28-2009 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by Granny Magda
01-28-2009 10:12 AM


Re: Who Hates America?
He wouldn't, because you're British (or at least, currently living in the UK).
Now if you were a frenchie, that would be a different matter all together. Those ungrateful bastards never thanked us for saving their skins from Hitler.
It's clear that Buz completely misunderstands the "war on terror" when he mentiond one of the things we should be protecting is american institutions and yet he's okay violating those same institutions to protect the rest.
Of course, if he gave a damn about the welfare of the american people he might support universal health care, but hey, poor people should die because they're too lazy to become wealthy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Granny Magda, posted 01-28-2009 10:12 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by Granny Magda, posted 01-28-2009 10:44 AM kuresu has not replied

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