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Author | Topic: Anyone else notice this pattern? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2495 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
So, I have noticed that many of the Creationists on this board have, shall we say, less than stellar writing skills compared to the science-minded folks.
Sure, there are a few exceptions, but I would guess that well more than two thirds of the Creationists who have ever posted here simply write very poorly. Their grammar and punctuation ranges from average to downright awful, they frequently fail to break their posts into paragraphs, and their ability to express ideas, sentence structure and word usage doesn't give one an impression of their having done very well in high school English. On a related note, my husband frequents a message board populated by people who work in higher education. Not surprisingly, most posters there write well, and express themselves clearly and often eloquently. Every so often a controversial subject such as Affirmative Action comes up in discussion, and he has noticed that of those people who pop up to write posts condemning it, many of them possess markedly poor writing skills. So, why does everyone think this pattern exists?
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nator Member (Idle past 2495 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I don't think this is true at all.
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nator Member (Idle past 2495 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I'll agree that NJ is much better than most Creationists at basic writing skills, but he isn't any better than average among all writers on this board. As for intelligence...if he's so smart, then why are so very many of his arguments demolished so easily? He and you both, Buz, have abandoned so many posts and threads and ignored so many rebuttals! This indicates that you and Juggs tend to not think through the logical implications of your argument before you post them, or if you think you have, you haven't done a very good job. There's also a lot of inaccurate facts that you both tend to put out there that your opponents have to spend a lot of time correcting... Edited by nator, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2495 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Really? If what you are replying to is of such poor quality, it should be incredibly easy to rebut, shouldn't it? (pun intended) For example, I have rebutted your general, unspecific claims regarding the safety of comfrey and that it has never hurt anyone. When I provided several specific examples of where theraputic ingestion of comfrey has killed people, you scampered off. You do that kind of thing all the time, and you aren't fooling anyone since everyone who can read, and is willing to examine the threads in a fair and balanced manner, can see that you've done this, over and over.
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nator Member (Idle past 2495 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I've challeneged jar on several occasions. Once regarding film and another time regarding gun control.
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nator Member (Idle past 2495 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I don't know where you get that idea. Maybe you are exaggerating. I think what is most often said is that if what a layperson thinks is true about a particular scientific issue contradicts what the consensus opinion of the scientific experts is concerning that issue, we should probably give greater weight to the scientific consensus.
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nator Member (Idle past 2495 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Having spent the last 15 years hanging out with many, many science PhD candidates and professional scientists, the opposite has been true in my experience.
quote: I don't think so at all. I think that the more you understand and think about how the world works the better you are at working on it. Of course, the stuff you are talking about has little to do with education more to do with physical coordination and experience. I'll bet you wouldn't know how to design an FMRI experiment to test a theory about a particular aspect of working memory and how to analyse the data, but that's because you haven't gone to graduate school and gotten a PhD in Cognitive Psychology and therefore haven't been trained to do that. My husband has, and that's why he can, and has, done that numerous times.
quote: Again, that hasn't been my experience at all. I have spent the last 15 years working in the specialty food/restaurant/grocery industry. The educational backgrounds of the people I've worked with have varied widely, from people with PhD's, Masters and MD's to technical school degrees to high school diplomas to dropouts who've been in prison and/or rehab for most of their lives. The "dumb" ones were the ones more likely to have spent time in prison and to have gotten mixed up with drugs. Obviously, they couldn't have had much "street smarts" or "common sense" if they got mixed up with that kind of stuff. The smart ones, regardless of educational background, were always trying to get more education.
quote: Huh?
quote: The difference is, rat, that we don't spend 12 years of school taking classes on using screwdrivers. Furthermore, our ability to communicate our ideas effectively in written form is a very good indicator of how orderly our thinking is and if we have mastered the use of our language. Not everyone will be a brilliant writer, of course, but it is shameful how truly poorly some people write in this country. We already know that sub-standard school systems turn out illiterate people so it isn't that much of a stretch to figure that it will also turn out people who are really poor writers. What I'd like to know, though, is why so many of those terrible writers on this board seem to be religious and/or Creationists?
quote: I've tried to help you learn to write more clearly and to learn to use the correct contraction of "you are" (you're/your), but you have only resented it. I can't help someone who doesn't want to improve their skills.
quote: No. I am saying that a lot of Creationists are poor writers. Apparently, you have a problem with comprehension as well as expression. ![]() There are lots of smart people who believe in God, but I think people can't be all that smart and also a Creationist. At the very least, a smart Creationist has to struggle with a lot of cognitive dissonance and willful ignorance.
quote: Whatever, rat. I am not ashamed of having good writing and communication skills. I think that this sort of anti-intellecualism and fear and resentment of education and intelligence can only be damaging to our country.
quote: Huh? Edited by nator, : No reason given. Edited by nator, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2495 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: When Taz explains something, I can understand him just fine. I don't reply to any of his points with "Huh?" like I have to do with you all the time. ![]() quote: Well, I suppose that means you express yourself the least well of just about anyone on this board.
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nator Member (Idle past 2495 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: If I may assume that you are referring to me, I'll just point out that I have disagreed with Percy, Phat, Jar, Holmes, Crashfrog, Subbie, Monk, LinearAq, RedVento, Nemesis Juggernaut, Faith, and lots of other people and I have generally had no trouble understanding what those posters write. People like Buzsaw, Mike The Wiz, Iano, and you tend to mangle the language and write in disjointed ways, creating muddled word salads and even losing track of your own arguments so that they have to be repeated back to you. Lots of people don't understand what the hell you are trying to say, rat. Don't mistake an unwillingness on many people's part to be taken on one of your avoidant runarounds as some kind of endorsement of the clarity of your expression.
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nator Member (Idle past 2495 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: LOL! Gasp! Maybe that's because what I say does completely contradict what you say.
quote: "Academic people"? As in, "people who work in academia"? Or, do you mean people with a lot of education? there's a difference, you know. Of course, even if this is true, you are making an illogical leap to conclude that since you have a lot of highly-educated clients that all or most highly-educated people can't turn a screwdriver. Things you might not have considered: -They know how to but don't enjoy it so they pay someone to do it. -They know how to do it but don't have the time to do it. -Less-educated people might be just as likely to not know how to turn a screwdriver as a more educated person, but they cannot afford to have someone like you come to their house to fix things, so you never see them. -you don't get called to the houses where the highly-educated people don't need you because they already know how to do it. So, you have a self-selected sample that doesn't really tell you anything about educated people's general ability to turn screwdrivers, since you don't know what proportion of all highly-educated people that works out to. You also don't know how many less-educated people don't know how to turn screwdrivers because they can't afford to have people like you come to their house.
quote: If the brain surgeon had the proper instruction, he almost certainly would be able to figure these things out.
quote: No. I said, since you clearly didn't read it the first time:
The "dumb" ones were the ones more likely to have spent time in prison and to have gotten mixed up with drugs. Obviously, they couldn't have had much "street smarts" or "common sense" if they got mixed up with that kind of stuff. People with a lot of common sense and street smarts don't get mixed up with drugs and get on the wrong side of the law. I hardly think that this could be considered a controversial statment.
Furthermore, our ability to communicate our ideas effectively in written form is a very good indicator of how orderly our thinking is and if we have mastered the use of our language. quote: Look, read what I wrote. People who don't write well have not mastered the use of our language. How could it be otherwise? People who's thought processes are disorganized would naturally have disorganized writing. But anyway, to get into graduate school you have to take the GRE's, and to get into the better schools you have to be good at both. In fact, you have to be pretty good at both to get into graduate school at all. I mean, there's a reason most people don't become MD's or PhD's. You have to be really smart and want to work really hard for years and years. Most people drop out before completion of their MD and PhD programs becasue they don't have what it takes.
quote: I have noticed an improvement, actually.
I am saying that a lot of Creationists are poor writers. quote: Yeah, which is what I wrote in my OP.
quote: I actually think it often does have something to do with their intelligence. Sorry, but there's a reason people with poor writing skills can't get into Harvard. Edited by nator, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2495 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
When Taz explains something, I can understand him just fine. quote: I understood everything Faith wrote very well, yet I disagreed with her rather strenuously. I read articles by conservative writers that I understand just fine, even though I disagree with nearly every sentence. Sorry, Charlie, but I am perfectly able to understand well-written English even if I disagree with it. You can even test me if you like. Perhaps you are projecting a bit here?
Well, I suppose that means you express yourself the least well of just about anyone on this board. quote: You missed the point again rat. You said that Taz is a bad communicator because he blows up and gets angry. I observed that you must be the worst communicator here (using your own rule), since you tend to blow up and get angry rather frequently.
quote: I think people would be much more forgiving of your lack of written clarity if you didn't work so hard to defend your poor arguments and lack of clarity, often becoming rather belligerant and obfuscatory.
quote: Maybe. On the other hand, when I go to the trouble to explain something in detail to you, but you simply brush it aside with a sarcastic "I know you are but what am I"-type dismissive one-liner instead of explaining how each of my points is in error, then I confess I tend to think you are trying to avoid addressing arguments.
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nator Member (Idle past 2495 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Rat, I have never gotten less than an A in any English class I had in school, and it was always easy for me. In seventh grade, we took achievement tests, and my reading comprehension grade level was "12th grade and above". I have always taken Advanced or College-Prep English classes all throughout high school, and got A's in them without studying much. I got a nearly perfect score on the verbal section of the SAT. When I arrived for my freshman year at college, we had the opportunity to take exams to see if we could "test out" of certain basic courses. I took the College English exam, and got a perfect score on my reading comprehension and tested out of taking the course. I tell you all of this to try to convince you that I really don't think my reading comprehension skills are the problem here. Really.
quote: The bible is not particularly well-written, Rat! The Song of Songs is kind of pretty, and Psalms is nice, but an awful lot of it is clunky and vague and mistranslated and nonsensical and dry as dust. And besides, you aren't trying to write in flowery, poetic, melodramatic "Biblical style" are you? You're just trying to communicate in ordinary English, right?
quote: As I already wrote, I disagreed with Faith very strenuously, but she was a very good writer, so I had no problem understanding her at all. I can disagree very strongly with someone and simultaneously understand everything they write with no problem at all. I have done so many times in the past. You often don't write clearly, and you want to blame everybody else for not understanding you.
quote: "Writing in Code" = "not writing clearly". Iano writes in such a way as to produce a lot of words that don't actually relay any substantive information. In other words, he shovels a lot of bullshit. Mike sometimes writes clearly, but other times writes muddled word salad. Buzsaw is the best of the three, it is true, but he tries to gussy up his words too much to be considered a very clear writer.
quote: True. I don't write anywhere near as well as Ringo, Crashfrog or Omniverous, but one of those was an English major and another was a professional jounalist, so I can't feel too bad about that. However, you do mangle the language. So does Buzsaw, and also our new friend ThreeDogs.
quote: Yes, I admit to being bad about being off-topic. I don't think I take things out of context, though. I have never heard anybody else say that about my replies.
quote: I've seen other people say that to you, on several occasions. You seem to have a real problem with following analogies. You seem to not be able to see the connections for some reason, so I have mostly stopped using them in arguments with you.
quote: It isn't a problem with my comprehension.
quote: Oh sure. The reason I can't understand you when you write poorly is because I hate people who believe in God. That's definitely the reason. So, how come I was always able to understand Faith, then? Edited by nator, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2495 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Possibly. Of course, I'm career retail sales and have developed some mad skillz in that arena, so I think I've got the "persuasive" thing going for me, too. ![]() Of course, sales skills don't work when you argue with the customer. Edited by nator, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2495 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Hardly. Why don't you post a passage from the Bible that you think is particularly well-written and then explain why you think that?
quote: Even if true, this has nothing to do with my reading comprehension. The point is, my reading comprehension skills are probably not at fault every single time there is confusion over what you've written, rat. I was an advanced reader from quite a young age, remember. At 13, I was reading at 5 or more grade levels above most of the rest of the seventh graders in Pennsylvania. If it is written reasonably well, I should be able to understand it reasonably well.
quote: Of course. It is our fault that a bunch of us can't understand what you are trying to say half the time. I can't help but notice, rat, that you've dropped your "Educated people don't know how to turn a screwdriver." argument like a hot potato. Why is that? Is it because you realized that your conclusion was based upon poor logic and a failure to consider the self-selected nature of your sample; educated people with money as opposed to poor people who can't afford you? Who is blinded now? Have a little bit of a problem admitting your error, perhaps?
quote: Rat, come on now. If my comprehension is wrong, then it is your job to correct me. If, in the course of that correction, you paint yourself into a logical corner and contradict yourself, as so often happens, then who's fault is that?
So, how come I was always able to understand Faith, then? quote: I certainly do. She was a damn fine writer, that's why. Very clear.
quote: I never "related" to Faith in any way whatsoever. I never understood how she could possibly come to the conclusions she did, and her reasoning was often really ridiculous. However, she always articulated her thoughts really well, even if I could never relate to her thought processes.
quote: Maybe people had you pegged as a fundie partly becasue you appeared to be a fundie. You said for a long time that you weren't, but then you would say something or express a view that influenced the rest of us to put you back in the fundie camp. Just sayin'. The only thing any of us have to go on here is what we read, you know.
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nator Member (Idle past 2495 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: That's crap, I do believe. Care to provide examples, or any sort of proof for this claim?
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