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Author Topic:   UFOs, Religion, and Skepticism
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2519 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 31 of 68 (325247)
06-23-2006 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Rob
06-23-2006 12:25 AM


Not Necessarily.
I'm not disagreeing with your conclusions but it seems everyone is making some of the same mistakes -- namely trying to use math to predict if aliens exist.
Here's the problem, we don't know the variables. Namely:
1) What is the chance that life exists?
We don't know if we are the only planet in our solar system with life on it. We think we are, but two remote control cars on Mars and a fly-by of the other planets is hardly an exhaustive search.
If it turns out that there was life on Mars, that there is life on the moon Io, that there is life living in the clouds of Jupiter, etc. then that would radically change our anticipation of life in other solar systems.
2) What it takes for Intelligent Life?
Setting aside the debate as to whether or not we constitute intelligent life ourselves, life on Earth has had some major setbacks. Did those mass extinctions make it possible for us? Did they delay Intelligence? Would dinosaurs have gotten to our level if it wasn't for the asteroid? We dunno.
3) What percentage of "intelligent" beings are capable of tool use?
Whales might be 100x smarter than us, but they don't have thumbs, and it's very hard to smelt iron in the middle of the ocean. Just because an intelligent species evolves somewhere doesn't mean they have the means to get off their planet.
4) How far away are they?
If an intelligent species exists, is capable of space travel, knows we are here AND wants to visit us. They may already be enroute. In fact they may have been enroute since the time of the Pharohs. They may not get here for another 10,000 years.
5) What are the chances that intelligent life still exists?
Let's assume there are several planets in the galaxy exactly like Earth. Humans have not been around very long. A galactic blink really. And at the rate we're going, doesn't look like we'll be around much longer. (Thanks, Fundies). What are the chances that we exist at the same time as some aliens?
Those are five variables I came up with off the top of my head. I'm sure there are hundreds more.
And, to keep it on topic. There is no God.

This message is a reply to:
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Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 32 of 68 (325256)
06-23-2006 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by riVeRraT
06-23-2006 9:46 AM


RRat writes:
I saw some kind of explanation for this once, that people could actually be dreaming these things, and they appear so real, because the brain is not ahndling the dream correctly, and confusing dreams with reality.
These are called hynopompic hallucinations. They occur just as we drift in and out of sleep (normally in the morning). It can also involve sleep paralysis as we drift into wakefulness. This used to be ascribe to succubi and incubi but nower days the honour goes to aliens.
RRat writes:
I have seen a lot of people call these aliens "the grays". Even people that supposedly have not talked to each other about it.
Greys and all types of little green men aliens are concidered to be the modern names for leprchauns and elves and such like.
These 'sprites' are often seen in hallucinations as our wandering brain makes faces out of things we see (ever looked at a cloud after having magic mushrooms? It really is amazing how real the images look).
Anyway when your have hypnopompic hallucinations I recall your right fusiform gyrus goes a bit wonky and you see faces in pretty much anything.

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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5876 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 33 of 68 (325282)
06-23-2006 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Nuggin
06-23-2006 10:15 AM


Re: Not Necessarily.
I'm not disagreeing with your conclusions but it seems everyone is making some of the same mistakes
That is what we would expect when everyone is using the same reasoning process. And that process assumes a search for truth (objective reality) and is itself an objective process. But we should note that the conclusions are not ours if they are true. The truth (objective reality) is in and of it's own. We cannot create it, because it created us.
Also, we are not as objective as we pretend to be...
Let me share an answer to a question from the bonus material on the DVD documentary, 'The Privilaged Planet'.
Question:
Does the monotheistic tradition of an intelligible universe have any impact on modern science?
Answer from Paul Davies, theoretical physicist / Australian Centre for Astrobiology:
”The worldview of a scientist, even the most atheistic scientist, is that essentially of Monotheism. It is a belief, which is accepted as an article of faith, that the universe is ordered in an intelligible way.
Now, you couldn’t be a scientist if you didn’t believe these two things. If you didn’t think there was an underlying order in nature, you wouldn’t bother to do it, because there is nothing to be found. And if you didn’t believe it was intelligible, you’d give up because there is no point if human beings can’t come to understand it.
But scientists do, as a matter of faith, accept that the universe is ordered and at least partially intelligible to human beings. And that is what underpins the entire scientific enterprise. And that is a theological position. It is absolutely theo when you look at history. It comes from a theological worldview.
That doesn’t mean you have to buy into the religion, or buy into the theology, but it is very, very significant in historical terms; that that is where it comes from and that scientists today, unshakably retain that worldview, as an act of faith. You cannot prove it logically has to be the case, that the universe is rational and intelligible. It could easily have been otherwise. It could have been arbitrary, it could have been absurd, it could have been utterly beyond human comprehension. It’s not! And scientists just take this for granted for the most part, and I think it’s a really important point that needs to be made.’
On your other comments, most seem reasonable...
1) What is the chance that life exists?
We don't know if we are the only planet in our solar system with life on it. We think we are, but two remote control cars on Mars and a fly-by of the other planets is hardly an exhaustive search.
Actually, with what we know to date... it is a distinct possibility that we are alone. If you promote an exhaustive search, and there is nothing to find, then what have you wasted.
You see? the argument that we are likely alone is based on faith in what we do know, and that is... that as far as we know, we are alone. Whereas the argument that we are not alone, is entirely based on faith in what we do not yet know, and that is... the unknown!
The greatest irony, is that those (such as myself) who argue that we may likely be alone in the te worldy alien sense, believe strongly that we are not alone in the other-worldly sense. And vice versa for the opposition. We're all looking for a savior!
And, to keep it on topic. There is no God.
If that declaration were true, then it would be an absolute that could not be known unless, you are God. A God will never deny Him/Herself!

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lfen
Member (Idle past 4704 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 34 of 68 (325582)
06-24-2006 4:33 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Larni
06-23-2006 10:26 AM


brain malfunctions
Anyway when your have hypnopompic hallucinations I recall your right fusiform gyrus goes a bit wonky and you see faces in pretty much anything.
Reading that I flashed on Sacks book: The man who mistook his wife for a hat and other clinical tales.
Not only can brain function see faces that arent't there. If certain parts of the brain are damaged it can't see faces at all even though it can still see. The brain is such an extraordinary complex process.
I could be wrong and the twentieth century was pretty horrible in many respects but with global warming and overpopulation and oil reserves approaching exhaustion I don't envy the young except that they may see some huge advances in brain science that I will miss. The work that has been done so far on nerves and the nervous system has been fascinating and there is so much more to come.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
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anglagard
Member (Idle past 863 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 35 of 68 (325653)
06-24-2006 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Larni
06-23-2006 10:26 AM


Homonid Aliens
quote:
Greys and all types of little green men aliens are concidered to be the modern names for leprchauns and elves and such like.
Strange how all these alien visitations are by what one would broadly classify as homonids based upon the various descriptions. To me that alone is strong evidence the interpretation is incorrect. The only way one could get a near-human alien form of life is to have a virtually identical history and evolution. The lack of imagination on the part of the adherents of present-day UFO/Alien theology may be related to a lack of normal human skepticism and a relatively high disdain for science.

This message is a reply to:
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Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 36 of 68 (325697)
06-24-2006 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by lfen
06-24-2006 4:33 AM


Re: brain malfunctions
Whe I did my Psych degree we looked at many different forms of atypical brain function, cut the corpus callosum and the two hemisphers can't really communicate (there are several minor bridges btween the hemisphers) and you can get Alien Hand Syndrome (which is fascinating!).
People have reported that their hand has tried to choke themselves! you can also get a weird visual disorder where you can't recognise things seen in the left visual feild of each eye.
With the callosum cut it can't link the image with the approriate verbalization. The lexical memory is still intact but the verbal reproduction bits in Wernicke's area are unconnected to the left visual field (percived by the left but processed on right hemispher).
It's pretty counter intuitive but fascination.

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Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 37 of 68 (325700)
06-24-2006 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by anglagard
06-24-2006 11:51 AM


Re: Homonid Aliens
I can't source this but I recall hearing that 'Flying Saucers' were not seen untill Hollywood started churning out sci fi such as 'The Day The Earth Stood Still'.
Another thing I can't source but recall hearing is that pre radio, Psychic Mediums did not exist as the concept of long range wireless communication was not in the cultural milieux.

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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 38 of 68 (325701)
06-24-2006 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Larni
06-24-2006 1:52 PM


Re: brain malfunctions
Whe I did my Psych degree we looked at many different forms of atypical brain function, cut the corpus callosum and the two hemisphers can't really communicate (there are several minor bridges btween the hemisphers) and you can get Alien Hand Syndrome (which is fascinating!).
I read an account of a study in which such subjects attempted to draw a named object, struggled--and the alien hand took the pencil away and drew the object, all without the subject's awareness.
On even stranger territory near the hominid UFO front, users of DMT (an incredibly potent hallucinogen) report observing odd forms of apparently intelligent life--some hominid, some bounching spheres--who often seem to be studying the user a la UFO abduction.
A subset of DMT users insist that these are actually extradimensional life forms attempting to communicate.
We are the aliens.

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anglagard
Member (Idle past 863 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 39 of 68 (325853)
06-24-2006 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Larni
06-24-2006 1:56 PM


Re: Homonid Aliens
quote:
I can't source this but I recall hearing that 'Flying Saucers' were not seen untill Hollywood started churning out sci fi such as 'The Day The Earth Stood Still'.
The first time the term flying saucer was used, to my knowledge was in the Mt. Ranier incident on June 24, 1947. The Roswell incident occured in the first week of July 1947. Not long after Hollywood jumped on the bandwagon.
Hollywood and UFOs go way back. For example I never heard about the Roswell incident having aliens in the debris until the movie Hangar 18 (filmed in Big Spring) was made. Suddenly the movie plot became the mythology.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1371 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 40 of 68 (325868)
06-24-2006 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by anglagard
06-24-2006 9:26 PM


"flying saucers"
The first time the term flying saucer was used, to my knowledge was in the Mt. Ranier incident on June 24, 1947. The Roswell incident occured in the first week of July 1947. Not long after Hollywood jumped on the bandwagon.
whoa whoa, not so fast. neither the roswell sightings, nor the mt. ranier ufos were disc-shaped. the pilot who reported the ufos over mt. ranier did not say they were shaped like saucers, he said they "flew like a saucer would if you skipped it across the water."
he described them as crescent shaped, as were just about all other prominent ufo's of the era. prior to that were cigar-shaped, and after were the disks. recently, they are triangular. i think it's a more a symptom of "collective unconcious" or rather images working their way into our social context from the media than anything else (including and especially alien craft).


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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 41 of 68 (325874)
06-24-2006 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Larni
06-24-2006 1:56 PM


Re: Homonid Aliens
Larni writes:
I can't source this but I recall hearing that 'Flying Saucers' were not seen untill Hollywood started churning out sci fi such as 'The Day The Earth Stood Still'.
In the early part of the 20th century, UFOs were shaped like zeppelins.

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achristian1985
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 68 (547879)
02-23-2010 3:42 PM


Are UFOnauts ET's, or something else?
The conclusion, therefore, is that while there is nothing inconceivable about visits to Earth by extraterrestrial civilizations in the past, even the near past, there is no acceptable evidence that it has happened, and the evidence deduced for the purpose by various enthusiasts is, as far as we can tell, utterly worthless.57
This is no place for an exhaustive review of UFO cases, but a brief summary of the facts is instructive. There is very little uniformity. UFOS are shaped like discs, spheres, cylinders, cigars, dumbbells, ovals, eggs, diamonds, cones, parachutes, tops, mushrooms, and hamburgers; all of these shapes occur singly or in groups. They range in size from a few inches to more than a mile in length, and travel fast or slow, with or without undulation, wobbles, zigzags, or sudden changes of direction. They are smooth, hairy, knobby, shiny, dull, every color of the rainbow, and some equipped with optional landing gear, wheels, tripods, doors, and windows. They are completely silent or else they hum whoosh, hiss, flutter, whine, whistle, beep, pulse, buzz, vibrate, bang, blast, roar, or explode thunderously. They stop internal combustion engines, interfere with radio and television transmissions, shock, burn, and paralyze people, and cause them to lose consciousness; or not as the case may be. In short, they are all things to all people. Since 1946 there seems to have been acceleration in both interest and in manifestations.58
The non-uniformity of UFOs is in complete opposition to the necessary mass production characteristics of any civilization with a technology advanced enough to visit us. Notice also the detrimental effects and the individuality of perception of these objects by the observers. Finally, notice the acceleration in manifestations since 1946- the reason for this will be explained presently.
We conclude that our considerations must, of necessity, start with the uncomfortable realization that UFOs have first no physically understandable means of getting here.61
The observed characteristics of the occupants of UF0s violate the conclusions of the process of evolution in accordance to natural laws as applied as a necessary explanation for their (the occupants) existence. Also, it is considered impossible by the laws of physics for UFOs to be from outside our solar system, and all known facts of our solar system stand in total opposition to an extraterrestrial origin from somewhere within our solar system.
More seriously, however, there is a significant void in Nicap's file of radar cases, despite the eighty-three sightings it lists. There is not a single sighting by the radars that should be the most likely to spot UFOs, if they really were extraterrestrial spacecraft. These are the radars especially designed to keep a watch on space and to detect even tiny objects. They form a network known as the Space Detection and Tracking System (Spadat), operated by the North American Air Defense Command (Norad). Construction of Spadats was begun shortly after the Russians launched Sputnik 1, to keep a continuous count on every object in space in the vicinity of the earth, especially foreign satellites and spacecraft....
This electronic fence is so sensitive that it has detected objects its small as a six-inch-long metal strap which went into orbit during the launch of an early U.S. satellite....
This raises the important question: Why are UFOs never spotted in space by the radar network designed to monitor the presence of every spacecraft in the vicinity of the earth, but are detected only by ground and airborne radars that can see targets within the earth's atmosphere? 64
Why? Because UFOs are not extraterrestrial in origin!
Most UAOs (Unidentilied Aquatic Objects) and UFOs could never possibly have originated on or near our own planet....
This expression actually means that (in a case such as this) the phenomenon is "natural" to this earth.... On the other hand, the suggestion that they might be indigenous to our upper atmosphere, or to the immediate vicinity of the earth in inner-space? ... -is of a much higher order of probability.65
So the most interesting and productive of recent analyses all seem to be following, and adding to, Jung's conjectures that the phenomenon has a psychic origin. 69
Options Disable Smilies in This Post. Show Sign Some of the observed actions of UFOs violate the laws of physics- primarily the laws of inertia. For instance, it is impossible for a physical object to be going 20,000 miles per hour and make a 90-degree turn, or completely reverse course instantly, as some UFOs have been observed to do. But it would be entirely possible if UFOs were the manifestations of spiritual beings- the fallen angels.
We have drawn our extraterrestrial humanoid data from two sources: contemporary UFO sightings and historical events as described in tile Bible. Now if both sources of these similar data are indeed telling us the truth, it is virtually certain that they are, in fact, talking about the same, or closely related, phenomena- as we have earlier implied.70
The above footnote is from a book written by an author who is not (at least according to the content of his book) a Christian and therefore does not have "an ax to grind, so to speak, in making this statement. His observation is entirely an objective evaluation.
One such potentially telling effect sometimes reported is a dissolving, or disappearing, of the observed object virtually into thin air- a kind of switching off," as it were. Sometimes, the object may instantaneously reappear again later- " switch back on"- and then still later, once again disappear. 71
... angels of Satan, who, as we have before shown, are not unclothed spirits, but possess spiritual bodies which they can render visible and tangible at will.72
For the whole aerial surroundings of our planet are densely peopled with a hostile race of beings unutterably superior in wisdom and power to ourselves; having had during a vast number of years every conceivable experience of the weak points of humanity; possessing the incalculable advantage of being themselves invisible, though as spiritual intelligences they are probably able, not merely to judge of us by our words and outward expression of countenance, but even to read the innermost thoughts of our- heart; cooperating with the most perfect and never-failing organization; and lastly, directed by a leader of consummate wisdom and skill, who is assisted by powerful princes, and finds his subjects so numerous, that, if we are to lay any stress on the word "legion" in the memorable narrative of Luke, he is able to spare some six thousand of them to guard one miserable captive (Luke viii. 30) .75
For until the Devil be deposed from the throne of the air, it is likely that he will exercise control, to a great extent at least, over atmospheric phenomena. 76
Footnotes 75 and 76 are taken from a book written over one hundred years ago, long before "UFOs" came on the scene.
(4) Seeing that angels can so materialize to themselves bodies as to eat the food of men (Gen. xviii. 8), to draw Lot by their hands (Gen. xiv. 10, 16), etc., there need be no difficulty in believing them able to perform other bodily functions, if they so wish.
If Matthew xxii. 30 be urged to the contrary, it may be pointed out that our Lord states what is the condition of things "in heaven"; He does not allege that angels cannot violate that order, and act otherwise on earth. Whilst in Jude, verses 6,7, we are plainly told that there have been "angels who kept not their own principality, but left their proper habitation"; and it is explained that Sodom and Gomorrah, in going after strange flesh, sinned "like these" angels.
The thoughtful, we say, will consider these facts and scriptures; and will not fail to note that this abhorrent and terrible subject is of practical moment, inasmuch as the Son of God has forewarned us that the days before His appearing again on earth will present a true likeness to the days of Noah and to the state of Sodom in the days of Lot. 77
If we are in the last days, the fallen angels will be more and more active, even to the extreme extent of assumption of physical bodies and intercourse with humans. The movies 'Close Encounters of the Third Kind' and 'Rosemary's Baby' are a reflection of preparation for this.
In addition to all of the preceding evidence, there are documented correlations of unusual statistical aberrations, which are common to people involved in the occult, demonology, parapsychology, and UFOo1ogy. Such documentation and further corroborative evidence linking UFOs and fallen angels may be found in an excellent book on the subject, entitled UFOs: What on Earth is Happening?
But there is another correlation definitely linking UFOs to the fallen angels.
It is, however, a startling fact that the present disposal of the regular spiritual powers of the world seems to be entirely in the hands of Satan. This is evident front the Eighty-Second Psalm, as well as from the verse of Isaiah; since in either passage the spiritual rulers are stigmatized without any reserve as rebels against God. 78
... and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I go forth, lo, the Prince of Greece shall come. But I will tell thee that which is inscribed in the writing of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me against these, but Michael your prince. (Dan. 10:20?21)
At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. (Dan. 12:1 RSV)
From the whole region of the vast rebel empire there came forth but one loyal prince of God to aid him in his conflict with the powers of darkness. This faithful archangel was Michael: nor is it difficult to account for his presence in the regions of air. For he is described to Daniel as "your prince," and afterwards as "the great prince which standeth for the children of' thy people" (Dan x. 21; xii. 1). It appears, then, that he is the spiritual ruler of Israel; and so, that when God chose a people upon earth for Himself, He took them out or the jurisdiction (Acts xxvi. 18; Col.1.13) of Satan, and appointed one of His own princes to govern and protect them. Hence with fierce enmity the Prince of Darkness seems to have matched himself against Michael, and to have directed in person his desperate assaults upon the alienated principality. One of his victories is recorded in the Book of Chronicles, where we are told how he stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel (1 Chron. xxi. 1). 79
All of the countries in the world are ruled over by fallen angels Under Satan, except one: Israel. Israel alone is ruled by one of the faithful angels, the archangel Michael. If UFOs are the manifestations of' fallen angels, then we should expect a direct correlation of UFO activity with military conflict involving Israel.
Since 1946 there seems to have been acceleration in both interest and in manifestations (of UFOs). 80
` Serious UFO research groups, who tirelessly sift, sort, and systematize reports, will never forget 1973. Autumn of that year staged the biggest UFO flap since bush pilot Ken Arnold captured headlines in 1947 with his sightings of nine "saucer?like things" over Mt. Rainer, Washington. The tornadic effect of 1973's flap was to stun a nation already troubled by Watergate and Middle East crisis. At its peak, October 1781
As the reader probably knows, the 1973 Middle East crisis was the Arab?Israeli conflict known as the "October War." Most persons even vaguely familiar with UFOs know that 1947 was a banner year. Israel became a nation again on May 14, 1948, following much prior conflict. I did not look for UFO statistics for the time of the other two major Israeli conflicts, 1956 and 1967, but I have no doubt that such statistics will likewise show increased UFO activity.
Edited by achristian1985, : the server doesn't like hyphens and skews them into ?'s; which obscures the meaning.

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 43 of 68 (547880)
02-23-2010 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by achristian1985
02-23-2010 3:42 PM


Rule #6
Rule #6:
quote:
6.Avoid lengthy cut-n-pastes. Introduce the point in your own words and provide a link to your source as a reference. If your source is not on-line you may contact the Site Administrator to have it made available on-line.
EvC Forum: Forum Guidelines

Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.
Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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achristian1985
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 68 (547883)
02-23-2010 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by New Cat's Eye
02-23-2010 3:50 PM


Re: Rule #6
I boiled out the excess, leaving only relevent content in the post. Summary: 1. The Bible indicates that fallen angels live in the Earth's atmosphere. 2. Atmospheric and near-space radars only show UFO's in the Earth's atmosphere, not outside it. 3. Bible says only one nation on Earth is NOT under Satan's authority: Israel. 4. Therefore (if UFO's are the physical manifestations of angels & NOT extraterrestrial), there should be a direct reflection of warfare involving Israel; and UFO activity. 5. There is.
Edited by achristian1985, : Left a p out of atmosheric. Went to alhabet store and got one.

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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 68 (547887)
02-23-2010 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by achristian1985
02-23-2010 3:59 PM


Re: Rule #6
1. The Bible indicates that fallen angels live in the Earth's atmosphere.
The bible doesn't say anything about fallen angels living in the "atmosphere." It says that these fallen angels lived among men, copulated with women, and sired Nephilim. Please substantiate your claim, biblically.
2. Atmospheric and near-space radars only show UFO's in the Earth's atmosphere, not outside it.
Being that UFO literally means "UNIDENTIFIED flying object," I won't argue that point.
3. Bible says only one nation on Earth is NOT under Satan's authority: Israel.
You don't even know your own bible. Israel is a cursed nation for their apostate condition which, according to the bible, will only realize the error of their ways during the 2nd Coming of Christ.
4. Therefore (if UFO's are the physical manifestations of angels & NOT extraterrestrial), there should be a direct reflection of warfare involving Israel; and UFO activity.
And since there is not what does that mean to you?
5. There is.
Ah, so Israel and UFO's do battle?
I assume you have evidence of this fantastic story about demon angels flying around all over the earth and conducting warfare with or against Israel?
Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.

"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by achristian1985, posted 02-23-2010 3:59 PM achristian1985 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by achristian1985, posted 02-23-2010 5:10 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
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