On the verge of a break-through

Sinful and lawful are 2 different things. We are not endorsing it. As far as the church is concerned, I said it should not be allowed. I am not endorsing it but giving the freedom to choose what they want. It's their choice, not mine. I hate to look at it, but that is my problem isn't it? There are many things I hate to look at that are legal.If we don't want our children to think it is ok, then it's really up to us to fully explain to them why it isn't, and up to us to be good enough spiritual leaders, that God will show them also. God will bless my family, if I follow Him.As far as the world is concerned, if I deny it, then I deny my own right to practice whatever religion I see fit, or however I interpret it.If I endorse it, or I don't endorse it, I am judging it. The bible tells us it is a sin. I feel it is a sin also, but I won't judge it. I will instead put my faith in God for Him to deal with it. Christian is not the national religion. Freedom is. No doubt, but there is no comparison between the two. All sins are equal, so in God's eyes we all sin, and fall short.The problem with murder is that it involves the unwillingness of one party. There is no consent. Homosexuals consent to each other, so we do not have to protect them from themselves, or tell them what is sin or not. That is between them and God.In a church, of course this is different. There should at least be an attempt at making a place Holy, and sin free. This doesn't mean gays should stay out of church, but that nobody should be practicing their sins within the walls of the church.Even Paul was a sinner and struggled with sin. He got away with his sin legally, and was tortured for his belief in God. What is wrong with that picture? Who should judge us, man or God? A marraige in God's eyes, in the church, not in the world. There 2 kinds of marraige. This is the only evidence I can find that answers the question if gay people are born that way or not. If God made em that way, then God must show them a way out.There is no doubt in my mind that one touch of the Holy Spirit would show them a way around it. I have seen it happen before. The Holy Spirit has removed several of my sinful desires. Jesus said to run from sexual immorality, not lock them up, or make it illegal in our governement. But then again Jesus hung out with the sinners, and maybe he just wants us to run from it in our hearts.Seems to me like you are using your religious views, and interpretations to define morality for the nation. Can you think of a non-religious view why it is wrong?Maybe we should make a national religion, and force you to follow it, or burn in hell.

I haven't really changed my heart on how I feel about it, only decided not to push this view on the world/nation.I see things from all sides, always, I have been one many sides already.I was never uncomfortable with people who disagree with me. I embrace the freedom we share in being able to disagree, and would rescue anyone on this forum from a burning car with my life, if I had the chance.I just want you to be honest in who and what you are, and argue from that standpoint, and not play devils advocate. This way there can be some relative meaning to your words.

Yea, so where in the OT is the law that non-procreative sex within marriage is a sin?The guy that got God's wrath for "pulling out" was because he was denying his brother an heir, not because he getting jiggy with his new wife only to get his rocks off.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

Jesus did not come to judge, but to save.If the law says there will come a time when the law will change, then it must change, that is fulfillment.

riverrat writes

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I haven't really changed my heart on how I feel about it, only decided not to push this view on the world/nation.

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The fact that you have decided to stop pushing your view onto the world is a change itself.

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I see things from all sides, always, I have been one many sides already.

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Forgive me, but I simply disagree.

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I was never uncomfortable with people who disagree with me. I embrace the freedom we share in being able to disagree, and would rescue anyone on this forum from a burning car with my life, if I had the chance.

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While you might be embracing this freedom now, you did not embrace it in the past.

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I just want you to be honest in who and what you are, and argue from that standpoint, and not play devils advocate.

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Who said I was playing devil's advocate?

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This way there can be some relative meaning to your words.

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The all seeing eyes of the rat talking?

Jazzns writes

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The guy that got God's wrath for "pulling out" was because he was denying his brother an heir, not because he getting jiggy with his new wife only to get his rocks off.

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In Animal Farm, the law isn't really about sleeping on human beds. It's about sleeping on human beds with sheets.In just about everything that has ever been written, if you really wanted to you can nitpick it to a a point where the assertion supports your own view.Edited by rgb, : No reason given.

What you are dismissing as a nit pick I consider to be a valid interpretation of the text. You can either just cry, "interpretation" which does nothing to further the conversation or try to show how my interpretation is invalid.There is such a thing as invalid interpretation. If I said that I interpreted that passage to mean that the law says that sperm shouldn't touch the ground then I would be wrong. My interpretation would be avoiding the context of the passage and the reason they were doing what they were.But even if I do have an invalid interpretation it does not matter. Like I said before, even if homosexuality is a sin in the eyes of God there is no reason for Christians to deny same-sex marriages.Jesus introduced the concept of sin of the heart and yet the "moral majority" is not pushing to get rid of free speech so that we can ban Dance Off, Pants Off. God will judge the sin of people who have adulterous thoughts and we as a society see no value in making an effort to stop people from commiting that particular sin of the heart. By the same reasoning we cannot deny same-sex marriages without being total hypocrites.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

Mike, I find it really distubing that you are seemingly equating someone who becomes sexually aroused by murdering children with the physical expression of sexual desire between two consenting adults of the same sex.And I am also incredibly sad and dismayed that you believe this next bit:

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Now all of this desire is from the selfish evil flesh, and we know it's nature; that it would murder to gratify. Therefore we are guilty of obeying our evil selfish genes.

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Do you really despise, hate, revile, and loathe yourself, and indeed, all of humanity, so completely?I am so glad I am not a Christian.

Jazzns writes

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But even if I do have an invalid interpretation it does not matter. Like I said before, even if homosexuality is a sin in the eyes of God there is no reason for Christians to deny same-sex marriages.

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Christians don't see it as denying anyone any right he hasn't already has. They see it as not giving a priviledge to anyone. Everyone has the right to marry a person of the opposite sex. Everyone, including gay people, have such right.

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I hate to look at it, but that is my problem isn't it?

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1) Good for you for taking the position that "it's your problem".2) It's so sad that you hate to look upon normally accepted public expressions of love between consenting adults, no matter who is doing the expressing.Being uncomfortable with it, or finding it unusual, or unfamiliar, or not personally finding it pleasant is one thing, but hate? That's a serious overreaction.

Actually, they don't. If somebody catches wise to the fact that one of the participants of such a union is gay, it's assumed the marriage is a fraud and it can be annuled upon the prompting of a third party, in most states anyway.But really? What you've just said is semantic wordplay. It's a joke. It isn't a serious argument, and it's amazing that an adult has to be told that. It's like when Henry Ford said you could get the Model T "in any color you want, as long as its black."Nobody mistook that, at that time, to mean Ford was offering an actual choice of colors. It's amazing that, in the present day, some people just don't get that.

Why? Ol' flexi-morals herself has a concrete base?(And in asking the question I wonder will I be viewed by you as I view Crash or Ringo...or even you at times)

I never really pushed my view on the world to begin with. It's really not up to me.What I am saying is, should it come to it, I would vote for same-sex marriage. Then you pretend to know me. Always, thanks for not judging me. Dude, who are you, and what are you?
Why do you pretend to be something your not? All I'm saying to is, don't be one person in the forums, than another person in chat, it don't work for me.

You never cease to amaze me. Even when you agree with me, you still have to disagree with me. And I wtill say your reading comprehension is lacking.I will quote myself from Message 1
"Please keep in mind, that I do not hate! "Can you do me a favor and explain how you got that I hate gays from any of this? It makes no sense to me at all.Logical thinking, after reading all I just wrote, could only bring you to the decision that if I hate gays, then I hate myself.

And my point is if you haven't notice that those Christians are not basing such a view on anything but their own need to be the arbiter of morals in this world. It is not Bibilical and it is hypocritical given the other sins of the heart that are ignored over this issue of homosexuality.Have you actually been reading my posts or do you just reply to the first sentence that wags your tail?

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)