George Bush leads us into the world of Kafka.

quote:

---

Before all the rest of you nations get all up in our grill about "the American sheeple", or whatever, consider very carefully that functional self-governance in this country came to an end in 2000.

---

Actually, I would put the date closer to December of 1941, although some people could make a good case for 1917. And the seeds were laid, in my opinion, in 1861.

---

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." -- George Bernard Shaw

Police officers shoot US civilians as part of their jobs. What would be the difference between the police and the military? The main difference would be that in the case of the military you would have a large group of people in uniform shooting a large group of "criminals" all at once. I can certainly see Tal giving the orders to shoot with a certain look of satisfaction on his face.Edited by AdminJar, : No reason given.

---

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." -- George Bernard Shaw

quote:

---

But didn't some newspapers finally count the vote and find out Bush would have taken office anyway?

---

Yes, but it isn't clear whether the newspapers counted ambiguous ballots in the same way that election officials would have, at least as far as I have heard. It remains somewhat unclear how the Florida election would have turned out had the Supreme Court allowed the vote count to continue. At least that is how I recall things.-

quote:

---

Also, while I wonder whether irregularities occured in 2004, is there solid evidence of cheating that would have given Bush a victory?

---

According to The Nation, which is pretty anti-Bush and does claim that Gore should have won the 2000 election, the irregularities in Ohio did not cost Kerry the election; they claim that the irregularities in Ohio (and in Florida 4 years prior) are more of a warning of what we might see in the future as partisan politicians consolidate their control of states' election offices.

---

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." -- George Bernard Shaw

I guess the attack was unprovoked in the same way that people who were willing to die in order to carry out their mission are cowards.Words have one important function: to constrain thought along the lines approved by our owners and leaders.

---

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." -- George Bernard Shaw

Honesty requires me to point out that I am not the first to mention this. I believe the first was Bill Maher shortly after 9/11.

---

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." -- George Bernard Shaw

quote:

---

It's because the British prime minister holds as much sway as a US state governor (or even less in the case of Florida and Texas) as far as US policy goes.

---

And the British military is under the direct control of the U.S. Department of Defense? That no matter who the British voted for, the US president would have flown into London and forced him at gun point to sign the orders to mobilize the British forces?I don't think people are talking about how much control Britain has over the situation. I think people are talking about how much control Britain has over their own contributions to the situation, and whether one can say that the British are on some sort of moral higher ground than the American.

---

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." -- George Bernard Shaw

quote:

---

The problem is the US is always damned if they do, damned if they don't in the eyes of the world.

---

The problem is that the US has been the most powerful nation in the world since WWII and has been the only major world power for the last 15 years or so, and has used its power to further its own interests (and that of its allies) at the expense of the interests of the majority of the world's people. That it has been so consistent in this is not the fault of the people who continue to point out its abuse of power.-

quote:

---

America, just like any other nation, has every concievable right to protect itself against any enemy, foreign or domestic.

---

Actually, it doesn't. Any response must take into account the likelihood that the alleged threat is a mistake as well as the level of danger the threat proposes. That is why I am not allowed to just go and blow up a house with everyone in it just because I think that one of the inhabitants might be planning on stomping through my garden. There things like due process to discover the actual facts and limitation of the remedy to the norms appropriate the alleged threat. It is a bit different on the international level between states, but the ideas are essentially the same.-

quote:

---

The US or ANY nation does not begin to spy on its citizens without some sort of reason to do so.

---

Ha ha ha. That's true; the US, and other nations that spy on their citizens, do have a reason; citizens who are concerned enough about their rights in a democracy to act on them are a threat to those in power. The reason is to identify the trouble makers (like, for example, Martin Luther King, who was spied upon by the FBI, as well as other anti-racism groups, feminist groups, and the peace activists) so as to neutralize their activities when necessary. The activities of COINTELPRO should be a warning of what happens when the state decides who is going to be a threat to "security".

---

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." -- George Bernard Shaw

quote:

---

The US along with EVERY nation that has ever been on planet earth seeks to further its interests

---

Heh. If EVERY nation jumped off a tall building should the US do so as well?At any rate, even if we accept that people and/or institutions have the right to further their own interests, those of us who live in civilized societies recognize that there are limits to the interests that may legitimately be furthered. For example, when ones interests confict with another's, then there should be clear and non-arbitrary standards by which to decide whose interests, if either's, takes precedence. That is why you don't have the unlimited right to just take what you want from other people and murder anyone who gets in your way. There is a limit to your interests that may be legitimately furthered.-

quote:

---

give me instances where it has affected other people so profoundly that they are granted the unalienable right to murder innocent, unsuspecting people?

---

What's the problem? You seem to think that the US and EVERY nation has the right to further their interests, and the implication of your replies is that their are no limits to this. Surely, then, you would recognize that other people have the right to further their interests without limit, even when their interests are furthered by murdering other people.But maybe this isn't what you are saying. When you ratchet up the hyperbole like that, it's hard to tell what you are really trying to say.-

quote:

---

It sounds almost as if you sympathize with expressed goal of Islamofascism.

---

Heh. Yeah, I hate freedom.-

quote:

---

and how does this mean that the US doesn't have right to prosecute those enemies, both foreign and domestic?

---

I don't think I ever said any such thing. I am merely pointing out that there are limits to how one may protect oneself. There are standards which must be used to determine how serious a threat the "enemy" is and who the "enemy" really is, and it is considered important among civilized peoples that the response to one's enemies be appropriate to the threat.-

quote:

---

the US gov't, (who is entirely comprised of US citizens)

---

Actually, the US government, like all governments, exists as a tool to further the interests of the ruling class. In the case of the US government (and, to a lesser extent, the other Western "democracies"), the citizens are given just barely enough control over the levers of power to give the illusion that they are the ones in charge.-

quote:

---

the US gov't, (who is entirely comprised of US citizens) seek to destroy other US citizens who realize their own freedoms?

---

That is pretty much it. US citizens who want to realize their freedoms are a threat to the ruling classes.-

quote:

---

Some people mistake 'freedom' to mean an abolition of all rules as they unleash themselves in an unfettered form of squalid behavior.

---

That may be true. However, many of us, especially on the left, recognize that "freedom" means the right to live our lives in peace, and to have some measure of control over the forces that affect our lives. It is this notion of freedom, however, that is such a threat to those that the current administration represents.

---

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." -- George Bernard Shaw

quote:

---

The US has every right to defend and support a nation that shares similar visions of Democracy....

---

And seeing how the US was founded upon the genocide of the original inhabitants of the area it occupies, we see that it is supporting a nation that shares similiar visions of "democracy".

---

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." -- George Bernard Shaw

quote:

---

Yep - talk is cheap. If they were that upset, why didn't/don't they do anything more than whine? I guess it's kind of fun to beat up on the US, while at the same time conveniently forgetting about their own lack of action.

---

Let's not forget that the Europeans also benefit from the current global economic situation. Their very high material standards of living are due to the exploitive nature of post-colonial "globalization", which is maintained, in part, by US military and foreign policy.

---

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." -- George Bernard Shaw