George Bush leads us into the world of Kafka.

Maybe if enough people say it that NJ will eventually read it.Time to see if NJ has the ability to admit that he is wrong and stop dodging.Even if the link was from the ACLU, it is a pure dodge to discredit the information because of the source.Articles from AIG or IRC are not disregarded here because they are creationists organization. They are disregarded because of the actual content for which the specifics of why they are wrong can be pointed out OF THAT content.

---

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

The plaintif was NOT just the ACLU. The ACLU joined as plaintifs after they were brought on as council for Doe.The judgement was that NSLs issued under law ammended by the Patriot ACT are UNCONSTITUTIONAL.Transcribed: The refutation of your claim!

---

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

Well NJ I did read it and it didn't take all that long. Specifics are in the previous post. It is hard to copy and paste from a scanned PDF. It is much easier for someone who requests information to actually read it at its source when it is provided. The opinions are not that difficult to read. Well first of all you are completely wrong. The ACLU could not have filed because they were NOT a recipient of an NSL.Next you are wrong that the ACLU filed as John Doe. The GOVERNMENT ASKED that the identity of the plaintiff be hidden and the court granted.The plaintiff is an internet service provider who was served an NSL by the FBI. Just because someone didn't distill the information for you into small words does not mean the burden of your request was not met.I'll note that you also have yet to admit that you were wrong for dismissing the sources because they were "from the ACLU".

---

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

It is simply one of a number of evidences listed so far that show how our current administration purposfully disregards the Constitution at any turn.I fully believe that if they could somehow link secularization to terrorism that they would also summarily ignore the establishment clause. They have done nothing to suggest otherwise and many things to suggest that given the opportunity they would turn this nation into a theocracy.The only thing I would say about this particular violation among others is that it is more severe in its impact. If I had to rank the right to privacy and the right to due process, due process wins every time.I might be able to live, if uncomfortably, without privacy. I CANNOT live without due process. The lack of due process removes ALL other freedoms.

---

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

I got pretty quick at reading court transcripts after marching through the entire Dover trial. That is besides the fact that the most important part, the conclusion, is less than half of a page. How you got this from the reading I do not understand. This is pretty plain english to me:

quote:

---

The court concludes that 2709 violates the Fourth Ammendment because, at least as currently applied, it effectivly bars or substantially deters any judicial challange to the propriety of an NSL request.

---

quote:

---

To summarize, the Court concludes that the compulsory, secret, and unreviewable production of information required by the FBI's application of 18 U.S.C. 2709 violates the Fourth Amendment, and that the non-disclosure provision of 18 U.S.C. 2709 violates the First Amendment. The Government is therefore enjoined from issuing NSLs under 2709 or from enforcing the non-disclosure provision in this or any other case

---

It is more than just judgement against the FBI, it ruled that portion of 2709 as ammended by the PATRIOT ACT as unconstitutional.Moreover the section regarding the non-disclosure provision, 2709(c) was ruled to be linked to 2709(a) and 2709(b) such that those section are covered by the judgement also as unconstitutional. The only people who could have ever tried this law in court were those who were issued the NSLs. Since it was illegal to disclose to the target of the NSL that their information was being seized contrary to the ECPA, no one who was an actual target of a NSL could EVER challange the law! This should have been your first hint that this law is pushing the limits! The Government asked for the Plaintiff's name to be hidden to supposidly protect the investigation. This has also been ruled as unconstitutional per the second link given by subbie. It is a violation of the First Amendment. Doe in this case simply didn't challange it. No kudos to Uncle Sam here. Then explain why the judgement clearly stated that the relevent section of 2709 (a)(b)(c) were unconstitutional and that the federal government could not longer excercise them?Why the 120 pages of describing case law about the constitutionality of non-disclosure if the only thing the ruling was about was a single investigation? Thank you for the apology. The only thing left about this is simply that even if it was from the ACLU you had no reason to dismiss it out of hand. "evos" don't dismiss AIG or IRC out of hand unless they are pages that have already been discussed elswhere. The content of the source is what matters most. Once you start dismissing sources by fiat, why would you expect anyone to bother with your sources. This is especially after they went through all the trouble, often taking lots of time, to get you those sources in the first place. It really is a slap in the face.

---

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

Terror bombing begain in its effective form in WWII though. Civilian targets were bombed as part of war policy.IIRC the US was a little more hesitant than Britan to bomb during the evening hours with a stated goal of preserving accuracy and isolating the raids to military or civilian war production targets. For this the US suffered much more losses in its bombing raids. The US would trade with Britan to keep up a relativly constant barrage of bombing raids. The US would fly during the day and Britan at night.The US had no hesitation though when it came to Japan. We pretty much bombed them indiscriminatly. Again IIRC there were more deaths due to conventional bombing in Tokoyo than there were from Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined. The last two of course are the highest case of indiscriminant terror bombing you can get. We won that theater of the war on the fear that we had more bombs.

---

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)