George Bush leads us into the world of Kafka.

You know, this whole debate over security and privacy has really gotten out of hand. One, we are only nominally more secure than before. There is no means that will safegaurd us from the inevitable, which is another major attack, especially from an EMP attack. Having said that, it doesn't undermine the fact that the US and its allies have already thwarted numerous plots; and those are just the declassified or unclassified ones we know about.On the flipside, the argument is that we are turning into a surveillance state. This allegation comes primarily from those of a more leftist appeal, which I find ironic, being that socialist nations have a far worse track record of illegal spying. I don't see America as the Gestapo or the Stasi, who were truly undermining people's civil liberties. I think the misconception comes from an inability to understand what the Patriot Act actually is and what it actually does. The NSA, DIA, CIA and a host of others have been listening to you for years with the Eschelon and Predator programs. Everytime certain words are spoken or typed on any electronic frequency, it automatically routes you to their servers to see if what you are discussing is benign or malicious. No one seemed to mind before because they weren't aware of what is going on. Seriously, all the Patriot Act does is grant the government the ability to obtain warrants they weren't sanctioned to establish prior to 9/11. It really has nothing to do with the fact that if you speak about certain things you will be monitered. I mean, afterall its not like the CIA is getting their jollies by watching you bathe. It isn't anything like that.Having said all of that, I do believe this is all going in one direction-- a surveillance state. But you can't blame the US government for trying to protect itself. The US was attacked, unprovoked, a grand total of 8 times before they responded to the terrorist threat with the Kohbar Towers, USS Cole, the first WTC bombing, etc. I believe that all of this is leading towards the end times prophecies spoken about in the book of Revelation, Daniel, Ezekiel, Matthew, etc. My solution: Accept Jesus.

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"There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility." -Theodore Roosevelt

What aggressive action did the US do to any Arab or Muslim nation to justify the Khobar towers, World Trade Center towers, the USS Cole, etc? As for your 'civilian attacks' that's about as simple as asking whether or not the IRA was comprised of innocent civilians. I assume, as well, you realize that the UK is in Iraq as well. Do you implicate yourself with your blanket statements?

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"There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility." -Theodore Roosevelt

The problem is the US is always damned if they do, damned if they don't in the eyes of the world. If the US tries to stop terrorism, they are perpetually seen as violating someones rights no matter how by the book they are, and if they stop trying to protect the citizens because they aren't PC enough, then they are just a bunch of lazy low lifes who didn't do their job.America, just like any other nation, has every concievable right to protect itself against any enemy, foreign or domestic. The irony is that Germany and the UK have been monitering its own citizens much longer than the US ever has, yet, not a word of dismay or such a backlash as is seen in the US-- this coming from people who overtly or covertly support Communist ideals! I couldn't help but notice the blatant irony. My life is exactly the same as its ever been. What have you lost in the process? Is the FBI harrasing you? Do people break into your house to collect your urine? Is your phone being tapped? Are you being followed by unmanned drones in the sky? Are your books being flagged at the public library? What specific grievances do you have to address? That's because the general public who is against this, one, doesn't even understand what the Patriot Act is, and two, are under the conspiratorial delusion that people are watching them and listening to them all the time. Its so ridiculous that I scarecly can put it into words. The only reason they would start looking at any of us is if we made certain key strokes. After sending the information, the NSA would recieve a "hit," where they started monitering our convo. After about 10 minutes they'd realize that we were just having a conversation and they would stop monitering it. You think the NSA or the CIA can really moniter 300 million of its own citizens and listen to threats coming from all over the world?Here's the thing: The people who think they are being watched either are because they are into some bad stuff or they have delusions of granduer and think that they are really special and that the gov't really cares whether or not they masturbate. The US or ANY nation does not begin to spy on its citizens without some sort of reason to do so. Its the same as the police have always done. They are going to start an investigation on someone without some sort of reason to be watching them in the first place.

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"There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility." -Theodore Roosevelt

So, you say that's an assertion of mine that I don't believe that gov't agents are watching us bathe but you believe that they are and that they are checking out babes while doing this? Okay, please explain to me how you have the inside scoop on this please explain by what method you are being watched. The government IS protecting you, that's what that means. What then should they be doing differently? I have to asked because the CIA got flamed over 9/11 but then they get flamed for preventing other 9/11 style attacks. What should the US gov't be doing to satisfy Crashfrog? The CIA finally captured the mastermind of WTC 1 and then they fired a missle into an asprin factory. That was all that was ever done as far as a retaliatory strike. So, what has the US done prior to the 2nd Iraq war that constitutes provocation to be attacked in the first place? See, we tried to ignore terrorism and chalk it up as a couple pests in the middle east. Our policy was that we would do nothing about and hope it would just go away. That proved to be a big mistake.What do you suggest that the US do now as far as its security and its foreign policy?

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"There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility." -Theodore Roosevelt

Wow, your sense of history is abysmal. The Stasi, KGB, and Chinese Secret Police, etc have a very bad history of spying on its citizens. As far as China is concerned, yes, they are still very much Communists with the exception that they adopted a free trade market. My o'my and look at how their country is flourishing. Now, if only we could get them to drop the insane idealogies of communism altogether. As far as fascists are concerned the Nazi's were no better with their frantic spying, but this misses the point. The point is in the irony that those who oppose the Patriot Act, even though my inclination tells me they haven't even read it, are those of the socialist persuasion who have a terrible record of illicit spying. No, when I say 'Left' I'm not speaking about moderates. I'm speaking about the protestors who incite violence at their rallies not abate it. I'm not speaking about 'hippy left,' I'm speaking about the militant hardline 'Che Guevarra Left' that is becoming so affluent in the American counter-culture.

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"There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility." -Theodore Roosevelt

Please show me which section you feel should be illegal. Explain how our civil rights are in jeapordy to begin with? Give me some specific greivances to address. What do you think is happening to you or to other people that is, in essence, criminal? Your link is from the ACLU. That's all that needs to be said in order to discredit the veracity of said claims.

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"There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility." -Theodore Roosevelt

If we acquiesce our rights at an insensibly fine rate then how would you know whether or not your liberites are being eroded to begin with? I would really like for someone to outline specific sections of the Patriot Act on what they feel is illegal or give me specific grievances on how some governmental entity violated their rights directly at the behest of the Patriot Act. That way we might be able to open up some actual dialogue instead of catering to phantom 'what-if scenarios.' Wire tapping has been around almost as long as phones have in the law enforcement community. This is not a new advent. Sexual speech is being eroded? What exactly consitutes, 'sexual speech.' Holmes, the porn industry has a higher revenue than every professional US sport combined. If any porn company is 'forced' into closure its because they have engaged in illegal activity. Aside from which, without specifics, why am I supposed to gather from these allegations? Though not immune to scandal, do you think that the law enforcement community probably has a better record of staying legal or the porn industry? The war against porn? Is this a cladenstine war that not even the tabloids have picked up on? They probably do. They have learned to adapt. What's an oxymoron? A purveyor of porn talking about rights to privacy. Again, how has your privacy being impeded? I agree fully with a right to privacy. You and all the other detractors neglect to give a single instance of what exactly violates your privacy, nor have they offered solutions for how the gov't is supposed to protect them.... Just as I said: Damned if they do, damned if they don't.No hindsight, no foresight, no peripheral vision. They only see what's right in front of them. No, privacy is great. I can sit in my house with total privacy can't I? Can't you? Yes, you can. The people who purport this stuff are the people that think Area 51 houses alien corpses and the kind of people who think 9/11 was a total conspiracy. They find some sick enjoyment with masochism because they just aren't happy until they are suffering. I'm sure you know the type I speak of. Explain to me how we are being 'watched.' What's the mechanism? What's the reason they look at Holmes? Yes, I agree. But what we are addresing is people who believe that the government is watching them, yet, they can't prove it, they can't explain how, they explain by whom, and they can't explain why-- they just think the gov't is out to get them and nothing is going to undue that apparently.I think these are people who want to feel important and pretend that the US gov't actually gives a flip about them.

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"There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility." -Theodore Roosevelt

The US along with EVERY nation that has ever been on planet earth seeks to further its interests, however, give me instances where it has affected other people so profoundly that they are granted the unalienable right to murder innocent, unsuspecting people? It sounds almost as if you sympathize with expressed goal of Islamofascism. Uh-huh, and how does this mean that the US doesn't have right to prosecute those enemies, both foreign and domestic? What does your statement have to do with your response to my quote? So, the US gov't, (who is entirely comprised of US citizens) seek to destroy other US citizens who realize their own freedoms? Is that argument? Some people mistake 'freedom' to mean an abolition of all rules as they unleash themselves in an unfettered form of squalid behavior. That is probably one of the more pervasive lies that have been perpetuated in recent years. Such distortions.

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"There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility." -Theodore Roosevelt

The ACLU is regularly the plantiff's in many cases. They also protect pedophiles too. Do you applaude them for this?

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"There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility." -Theodore Roosevelt

Communism is a bit more than economic system. Its an idealogy, and one that, amdittedly, sounds very appealing and impartial. Obviously the concpet of Utopia has never come to fruition because mankind tends to sin. I have no idea what you just said. Right. Communism doesn't work as evidenced by all of its demonstrable failures. But this misses the point. The point is in the irony that those who demonize the Patriot Act tend to be of a more liberal persuasion, seemingly blind to the fact that its been Communist (Leftist) nations who have commited the most heinous offenses against the civil liberties of people. You don't find that ironic? No nation COULD ever be truly communistic because that would require people to actually follow their own conscience, in which case, there would be no sin. If Communism could really be summarized by an economic policy no one would ever really have any problem with it. It doesn't work and its sets up dictatorships. Well, when you say "The Government," I don't really expect you to mean every single person that works for the government. I think we have enough labels out there to distinguish whether or not Left doesn't mean Right. I don't think I have to say Moderate Left. If I'm not talking about you then let it roll off your back, eh?

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"There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility." -Theodore Roosevelt

Yes, I believe that everyone is entitled to a 'defense.' I also believe that simply because I don't like someone they still have unalienable rights. Who thinks differently on that matter? What you don't understand is that the ACLU is special interest groups like them specificaly go after these cases. It isn't like they are state attorneys 'assigned' to a case. They go out and purposely seek to defend the reprobate just for the sake of doing it. That isn't a problem for you? If it isn't, can I ask you whether or not you find children sexually attractive? If you must know, I believe there is a fine line between patriotism and a blind allegiance. More importantly, I think the government does have too much control and that the Constitution is being misinterpreted in certain instances. I just think that this whole controversy over the Patriot Act is much-ado-about-nothing because the people that have the biggest problem with it haven't even read it and don't really know what it entails. They just heard from some pundit that its out to get them and they jumped on the bandwagon.Its the irony that kills me. Its like the people in VW buses who sport a nifty "Kill your T.V." and "I give a hoot and don't pollute" bumper stickers, but their faces are glued to the televison all the time and their vehicle spews more crap into the ozone than any other vehicle on the planet. Its the irony that kills me.

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"There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility." -Theodore Roosevelt

Yes, the ACLU filed a motion in their own defense. I haven't all four documents you provided, though I will eventually. They are too voluminous for me to read in one sitting. For the time being, why don't you referrence the specific grievance and tell me what page its on instead of me going through four separate cases. I'll address what ever points you make. Other than that, you can't expect me to read all these cases in one sitting.

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"There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility." -Theodore Roosevelt

What am I dodging? The award went to the Plantiff, the ACLU, whereas, the defendant was judged for operating outside the jurisdiction of the 4th Am....? What do you want me address? This coming from someone that never answered my question of whether or not they think seeking to defend pedophiles is acceptible or not.

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"There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility." -Theodore Roosevelt

The ones who set the case in motion was the ACLU, that's why they filed as "John Doe," not as an entity but as an institution. What did I say that is counter to that?!?!?I had asked people for specific greivances on why and how the Patriot Act has hurt them or sought to bring them harm. Subbie, (I think was Subbie), graciously offered this courtcase as well as 3 others. I know that no one in here has actually read the cases otherwise they would give me 'specifics' which I asked for. But this is a typical derailment of an argument.No matter how inconvenient its going to be, I'm going to pour over these 4 documents in plenary and will respond when I'm done reading them. I trust you understand that its going to take me some time in reading them over, so I will be rejoin the debate upon completion.

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"There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility." -Theodore Roosevelt

It was 120 pages of information, much of it referencing other cases and statutes critical in providing an overall analysis for this particular case. Please don't make it out to be something one could just traipse through and I also have serious doubt as to whether or not most people even read it because it is 120 pages long. But it isn't difficult to give me the specifics on what the allegation was on, instead of having me read the entire thing. The charge is that the USC Title 18, SS 2709 implicitly goes against the 4th Am rights from unreasonable search and seizure, both that have been advanced well before the Patriot Act. The final judgement was that the FBI was attempting to obtain this information clandestinely when it did not need to obtain it from "Doe's" ISP address. It was stated by the Court that the information the FBI sought was already a public domain and that essentially it was uneccesary to covertly retrieve said information. It should also be made known that "Doe" was never in any trouble with law enforcement personell at any time. This isn't like Doe was ever attacked or harassed by the US gov't. The FBI simply wanted records, all of which are sealed so I don't know exactly what they sought. Yeah, I saw that after reading the document. Thanks. I guess the government isn't so bad afterall, aye. It wasn't met. In this particular case a certain field office of the FBI, that was not cased, conducted an investigation that went against the 4th Am and that their obtainment of said information was declared to have been garnered unconsitutionally. I found where the US Title 18 was compiled and changes made after the initiation of the Patriot Act on those Titles. Okay, I hastily stated that it 'came from' the ACLU. Poor choice of words on my part. My deepest apologies.

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"There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility." -Theodore Roosevelt