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Author Topic:   Discrimination against homosexuals carried into the 21st century
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4430 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 12 of 313 (377928)
01-19-2007 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Taz
01-17-2007 6:20 PM


Descrimination...
On one occasion I ran up against this very question from a news reporter. I had just finished lecturing at a university, and she had very graciously stayed through the entire lecture even though she had other pressing engagements. After the lecture was over, she was walking beside me and said, “Can I ask you a question that really troubles me about the Christian?”

I was glad to oblige. “Why,” she asked, “are Christians openly against racial discrimination but at the same time discriminate against certain types of sexual behavior?” (She made more specific references to the types of behavior she felt we discriminated against.)

I said this to her: “We are against racial discrimination because one’s ethnicity is sacred. You cannot violate the sacredness of one’s race. For the same reason we are against the altering of God’s pattern and purpose for sexuality. Sex is sacred in the eyes of God and ought not to be violated. What you have to explain is why you treat race as sacred and desacralize sexuality. The question is really yours, not mine. In other words, our reasoning in both cases stems from the same foundational basis. You in effect switch the basis of reasoning, and that is why you are living in contradiction.”

There was silence, and she said, “I’ve never thought of it in those terms.” You see, when an argument is taken to the first level, it immediately finds a common point of reference. When it leaps only to the third level, it builds without a foundation….

(Article excerpt/ the three levels of philosophy http://www.rzim.org/resources/jttran.php?seqid=90 )


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by ringo, posted 01-19-2007 12:45 AM Rob has responded
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4430 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 14 of 313 (377938)
01-19-2007 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by ringo
01-19-2007 12:45 AM


Re: Descrimination...
That presupposes that they have a @#$%ing clue what "God's purpose" is.

It is amazing how lacking in basic and obvious science our young people are today...

The term sex finds it's context in the concept of reproduction. Some creatures are asexual. Some are heterosexual. And of course their are others...

Human beings are heterosexual. I thought you knew that. :eek:

Genesis 5:2 He created them male and female and blessed them. And when they were created, he called them "man."

as an aside: Isn't it amazing also, that God called man and woman... man (or in the Hebrew, 'Adam'). It was only after sin entered the picture that the male decided to give his wife a diferent name from his own and rule over her.

According to the Bible, God created them equal, and both revealed His whole character.

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.


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 Message 19 by Larni, posted 01-19-2007 8:09 AM Rob has responded
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4430 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 20 of 313 (377998)
01-19-2007 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Vacate
01-19-2007 2:35 AM


Re: Descrimination...
So you really think that the "others" you mention are having relations with members of the same sex for the purpose of reproduction?

Their are some strange things in nature. All beautiful in their own way. but I am talking about natural relations. Not all of them come to mind, but take certain flowers with both male and female sex organs.

Iwas not talking about three catagories of human beings, but different species and 'kinds' of sexuality.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4430 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 21 of 313 (378006)
01-19-2007 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Larni
01-19-2007 8:09 AM


...some of you thought I was just a liar...
But, other humans are homosexual or bisexual.

And still other humans are murderers, liars, thiefs, and otherwise generally insolent, ignorant, and obfuscating. We should embrace them all for what this twisted world has made of them. They are works of beauty and splendor; products of their environment. They are trapped there, so we should not expect them to resist their programming. Let them all be... in peace.

So the truth... is that there is no way out? Just accept what is, and move on with your life? Is that what you're telling me?

The devil is a clever rat bastard. I hate him for what he does to us. I intend to lift up his snakes from the minds of those who are willing to come to their senses. I started with myself. And the battle continues. His poison has no hold on me any longer. I am almost out of the pond of lies entirely.

If you folks want to believe this stuff then be consistent, as Ravi's powerful argument reveals.

Stop judging those who you accuse of being the judge of you... They are products of their environment and cannot help what they are so you say. George Bush, the 'Christian Right', etc... are trapped in their prison just like you right?

You just turn your own judgement on them to justify yourselves. How proud is the thief that he nevers lies? Or the murderer that he never steals. And many of them do the same. I judge no one. I am a sinner too. I was exposed to pornography and molested as a boy by two different male persons. I know the struggles. I hold no derision over the homosexual, only empathy.

Someone came to proclaim freedom for the prisoners. For all the sinners of the world. Even the murderers and liars and theives. And He conquered. He helps us break our hard hearts. He holds the keys to heaven and hell.

Stop condemning each other and tell them the good news... 'We are forgiven'. We can know Him and need not hide. He will accept us if we just be honest with Him. If we are not honest, then we cannot hear Him, because He is honesty. Now, He is only your conscious, but if you open that door where He knocks, you can know Him. And He will give you the power to overcome the world and it's delusions. Your beaten down little conscious will be energized and you will be brought to life in the Spirit of God. You will rise from the dead as you still live. And no longer be blind while you still see.

We all have sins to turn from, and if we won't acknowledge that our sin is indeed sin, then we accept no forgiveness and are still in our sin by condemning ourselves to our lust for the sins we were never created for. If the truth is to find any place in us to take root, then we must be honest with ourselves.

1 John 1:10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

Luke 4:18 "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed, 19 to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."

I'll bet some of you thought I was just a lair... I was more than that. Paul describs the heart of man with absolute specificity, and unparralleled accuracy.

Romans 1:19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

When I saw myself, I repented in dust and ashes...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Larni, posted 01-19-2007 8:09 AM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by jar, posted 01-19-2007 10:20 AM Rob has responded
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4430 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 22 of 313 (378008)
01-19-2007 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Jaderis
01-19-2007 2:03 AM


Re: Descrimination...
Yes, they were "equal" before sin, so what gave "Adam" the right to "give his wife a different name" and "rule over her?" If they were equal, then "Eve" should still have as much rule over "Adam" as he does over her because they both "sinned" and aren't all sins equally egregious under the eyes of God?

He took the right to rule her because He turned from God. God does not justify it. It is just the natural course of sin. And without God, how can Eve recover? The salvation of both is found by going back to the source of such equality... God.

And where in the hell does it say in Genesis that Adam named Eve after the incident with the fruit? It doesn't. The word for "woman" was used in Genesis before said incident.

Actually it was 'ish' and 'isha'... Might be a good one for Arachnophilia or Anastasia. They love to find out such details of language and minutia. but the answer to your question is in Genesis 3:20. It is all in the context of the curse that they brought on us all.

Genesis 3:16 To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,' "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life. 18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field. 19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."

20 Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living.


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Replies to this message:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4430 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 26 of 313 (378027)
01-19-2007 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by arachnophilia
01-19-2007 10:40 AM


Re: Descrimination...
as a side note, because it's interesting, "eve" is chavah, the causative form of chayim, "life."

Yes... and her offspring would crush the head of the serpent ie. Jesus overcoming satan.

Thanks for the confirmation of the root of the word 'Adam' (or man).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by arachnophilia, posted 01-19-2007 10:40 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4430 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 43 of 313 (378149)
01-19-2007 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by jar
01-19-2007 10:20 AM


Re: ...some of you thought I was just a liar...
jar:
You consider homosexuality a sin. You try to hide the fact that it is YOU making such a distinction by claiming it is "Christ".

You simply use your fictional Christ as a cop out.

Ok jar... please enlighten me. Explain this to me in a logical way so that I can examine and test it.

let the accusations begin...

What... 'in the name of reason'... are you talking about?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by jar, posted 01-19-2007 10:20 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by jar, posted 01-19-2007 7:41 PM Rob has responded

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4430 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 44 of 313 (378151)
01-19-2007 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Vacate
01-19-2007 1:30 PM


Re: Judgement
Vacate:
I just love how you throw out bible quotes while you stand on your soapbox and tell everyone how YOU are right.

Well, finaly somebody appriciates it? ;)

I am not right... the Bible is right.

It's kind of like us talking about gravity. Are we right in saying it exists? It has nothing to do with us. Our rightness is irrelevant.

The laws of physics are fundamental, extreme to the highest degree, unyielding, restraining as well as life giving, fanatical and beautiful, etc; and most importantly, they are unchangeable without the cessation of life.

So it is with the moral law. Violate it, and all hell breaks loose. Only a man who cuts out his own eyes cannot see and accept that. Or one with an extreme bias and unreasonable agenda.

Remind otherwise intelligent people of this, who insist (absolutely), without any intelligent reasoning to support their desires (emotional attatchment and addiction), and you will be prosecuted by the fullest extent of lawlesness as you are about to witness.

I'm just telling it like it is. I'm not trying to provoke anything here.

Question: Can lawlesness impose law? Or, can chaos prosecute order?

I guess they can do anything they want (they have free will), but on what basis of law?

On what basis other than adulterated hatred and spite, and defiance, and obstinance, and retibution, and insanity?

Do you see why good will always prevail in the end? Why logic will prevail over incompetance and delusion?

Will you accept that because it is not me but law and order Himself?

I do not seek submission. Don't think I want you to admit that I am right... No... I am your brother who also had to yeild to the only light we have; the light of reason. I could not deny Him once I saw Him lest I stay in darkness.

John 8:12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

I don't want to fight you... but I will stand my ground.

In peace, Rob

Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

Edited by Rob, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4430 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 45 of 313 (378153)
01-19-2007 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by arachnophilia
01-19-2007 11:02 AM


Re: Descrimination...
that does not seem to be the purpose of the text.

I see... another one of those pesky coincidences.

You know, as a man who respects the scientific method you should know, that in a universe goverened by laws, there are no coincidences.

Perhpas you should go into chaos theory so as to use the irrational to rationalize the legitimacy of nonesense.

The Bible does not oppose itself. It reflects the wisdom of God. The connections are not coincidence.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4430 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 47 of 313 (378172)
01-19-2007 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by nator
01-19-2007 6:58 PM


Re: Descrimination...
So...I'm confused.

Are you saying that it is sinful for a man to rule over his wife?

That is a cunning question... Very impressive!

I should probably think about this before responding, but what the heck...

I think it is sinful in terms of our original purpose. Now that we inhabit this fallen world we have this whole of chain of command to deal with. We brought it on ourselves though... or at least for us, our ancestors brought in on us. but that is not an excuse, since we have been offered 'the way' out.

The reigns of power are not offensive if the powers that be are moral and just. It is not difficult to see that the ancient cultures took this to it's extreme and abused their authority.

My pastor made the point that when Jesus came on to the scene, the religious leaders (men) of the day said prayers thanking God that they were not a woman (a sinner). But Jesus, unashamedly spoke kindly with the sumeritan woman at the well. A big no no for Jewish men.

Our pastor also opened up Genesis in a clear and demonstrable fashion to show that it was ish that had sinned, not ishah. Adam was given the command not to eat the fruit before Eve had been formed. He failed in his duty to tell her, and was standing right next to her as she was deceived by the clever cunning of satan (deceived as opposed to sinned).

Since this not my area of expertise, I cannot recall all of the Biblical references (and there are many) to show the impact on womens rights that Jesus actually had. My apologies...

I think it would definately suprise you. I know my wife and I were shocked to see it all in the proper context. We also were under the assumption for a time that the God of the Bible condoned the mistreament of women. He does not...

Men are commanded to love their wives as Christ loved the church; that is, give his life for her. He is expected to be Godly and valiant.

God was not giving men a license to beat their wives into submission when He told Eve that they would rule over them. Women are expected to volunterily submit with the assumption that their husbands are worthy of such honor by reciprocating the respect.

When God told Eve of the curse, He was saying in effect, 'Now look... now look at what you will have to deal with.' The curse was just God telling Eve like it now was. He took no pleasure in it. The same with Adam.

Ephesians 5:21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. 22 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church-- 30 for we are members of his body. 31 "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." 32 This is a profound mystery--but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by nator, posted 01-19-2007 6:58 PM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4430 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 51 of 313 (378192)
01-19-2007 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by jar
01-19-2007 7:41 PM


our thoughts must be discriminating.
jar
Third, you tried to misdirect folk be conflating homosexuality with lying, ignorance and thievery.

I see... so all men are an island?

In hell they will be. All alone to rule their kingdom of one.

jar[qs]

Sins other than your own are none of your damn business.

I see... The community is not dependant upon the behavior of it's members?

So the sins of Bush and Cheney are none of our business?

I did not equate homosexuality with lying. But in some cases lying is worse!

I did not draw any moral equivilant. And the fact you and others think so is ludocrous!

What I did do, is put 'all sin' into the catagory 'it is all in' by definition... Sin. I made a conection in kind, not in degree.

All sin has one thing in common, it is a violation of law. It is a violation of the natural order which must be assumed to be correct and good. If you do not make that assumption, then nothing is incorrect or 'bad', including my saying otherwise.

No one would equate murder to a homosexual romp. But all sin is murder in the purest sense. A murder of truth and order. And all sin is a lie, since it distorts reality into disorder. So all sin is sin.

It is not only my business, but everyone elses as well... unless you do not believe in community which finds it's consumation and origin in the trinity.

These words and their predecesors, should be a fatal wound to the hardened hearts. But there is a harder heart and it's head is miraculously healed. It's head is not found with any capacity to accept truth or yeild to it. It refuses consciously to deny truth.

And the followers of this beast are amazed and worship him without the ability to comprehend the words or what it is they should do.

Be careful who you follow; 'reason' and conscious, or the corrupted heart and it's irationaliy.

Ro 6:16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

It's not personal anymore jar... so relax and think. I am your brother.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by jar, posted 01-19-2007 7:41 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by jar, posted 01-19-2007 8:25 PM Rob has responded
 Message 56 by kuresu, posted 01-19-2007 8:52 PM Rob has responded
 Message 57 by anastasia, posted 01-19-2007 8:58 PM Rob has responded

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4430 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 53 of 313 (378194)
01-19-2007 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by nator
01-19-2007 7:54 PM


Re: a newer, gentler misogyny
Females should think of men the way men think of God.

Right?

Of course not. God is to be first place in our lives. Our family second. I don't invite you to worship any man but Christ.

Now you're being boring...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by nator, posted 01-19-2007 7:54 PM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by nator, posted 01-20-2007 5:43 PM Rob has responded

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4430 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 54 of 313 (378200)
01-19-2007 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by jar
01-19-2007 8:25 PM


Re: Try again to make it clear.
Let me see if I can make this very clear. Sins other than your own are none of your damn business.

So am I 'sinning' by not obeying this... law you say I am violating? If so, are you violating your own rule by not minding your own and telling me I am a sinner?

You have lost the ability to reason because of your pride. If you do not repent you will be insane for eternity.

'Cool intelect must prevail not only against cool intelect on the other side. But against the muddy heathen mysticisms that deny intellect altogether.' C.S. Lewis

I know there is good in you jar, but only you and God can find it. You have to trust Him. You have nothing left to lose.

Edited by Rob, : No reason given.


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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4430 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 59 of 313 (378226)
01-19-2007 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by kuresu
01-19-2007 8:52 PM


Re: our thoughts must be discriminating.
again, why must we assume the natural order to be correct and good?

Ok... let's assume it is not. And under that assumption (that the natural order is not good and orderly) is anything wrong (sinful) with anything?

Taz said he does not believe in the concept of sin... Do you concur? And if so, what then is 'rightly' said to be 'wrong'... when there is no such thing as right and wrong?


Matthew 10:26 "So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known.

This message is a reply to:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4430 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 61 of 313 (378229)
01-19-2007 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by jar
01-19-2007 9:07 PM


Re: Other folks sin is NOT your business.
The only sin that is your business is your sin.

Sin, by it's definition, affects everyone. That's why we call it sin.

For illustration purposes, let's say you are a child molester. Add to that equation the fact that I have three children.

That equation equals my absolute business.

And that is why judgement in the end will be final and unrestrained.

That is why the greek word orge is used by Paul to portray the wrath of God. It will be passionate and unrestrained in it's fury against such sophistry and supression of truth.

The terms of peace have been offered by the big guy. Take it...


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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