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Author | Topic: Discrimination against homosexuals carried into the 21st century | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
anastasia Member (Idle past 5979 days) Posts: 1857 From: Bucks County, PA Joined: |
scottness writes: I did not draw any moral equivilant. It seems normal now to think of sin as an action that hurts someone else. We tend to have the biggest disagreements over the ones that don't physically or emotionally hurt anyone, but are thought to hurt those mysterious 'souls' that we have floating around. The idea of 'equivalents' is kind of ludicrous for measuring the spiritual. Is lying as bad as murder? Sure, if it condemns someone. In spiritual terms, a murderer is already a liar, for denying the life of the body as sacred. The liar is already a murderer, for denying the sacred life of the soul. Sin is everybody's business if it hurts someone. If it doesn't, it is only more sinful to discriminate or hate. Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.
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anastasia Member (Idle past 5979 days) Posts: 1857 From: Bucks County, PA Joined: |
jar writes: The only sin that is your business is your sin. I've thought about that, and I shall rephrase. Sin is personal. Crime is public. Some of them happen to overlap. Crimes can be punished and laws made against them. We can't make laws agianst sins, and we definitely can't punish someone for sinning. The realm of 'sin' belongs to the soul police.
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anastasia Member (Idle past 5979 days) Posts: 1857 From: Bucks County, PA Joined: |
jar writes: Correct. I think I've learned by now; when you get adamant about something it is not to be an arse, but to make us think. Hm...when you see us NOT thinking even with repeated prompts... Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.
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anastasia Member (Idle past 5979 days) Posts: 1857 From: Bucks County, PA Joined: |
kuresu writes: you are talking about a single, specific natural order. I'll rebut you.You are talking about a single natural order too. You just don't realize it. why can't there be other natural orders? There might be other orders, but they aren't natural. You say slavery was part of the natural order. No, it wasn't. The natural order is equality. What do you not understand about the word 'inalienable'? Do you think an 'inalienable right' is supposed to change? Do you think it was ever GOOD to take away a person's freedom? Was it ever GOOD to take away their life? Is it 'natural'? Slavery was not good just because a lot of people in a certain time period got away with it. If that were the case, then why don't we say it used to be good, and things changed? Do you think the descendents of those slaves would be happy to hear you say 'slavery used to be natural'? You know what is funny? When a christian tries to rationalize the crusades by talking about how conquest was 'natural' back then, it doesn't go over well. We recognize the same natural law looking backwards as that which we have in the present. There are plenty of things that change in the course of history. Coal mining is still not evil just because people switched to oil. I don't see why giving up slavery would be any different, if it was so 'natural'. Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.
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anastasia Member (Idle past 5979 days) Posts: 1857 From: Bucks County, PA Joined: |
Ringo writes: The "natural order" might not change, but our ideas about it do change. Yes, Ringo. Our ability to understand how things 'should be' is an ongoing process. What should be is the natural order. If something IS, that does not mean it should be that way. What once WAS, does not mean it should have been. That is a point no one should debate. If what SHOULD be is open to debate, then we would have to say that slavery is an option for the future as it was for the past.
So, yes, "inalienable rights" do change. They didn't change. They were ignored.
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anastasia Member (Idle past 5979 days) Posts: 1857 From: Bucks County, PA Joined: |
Hoot Mon writes: Well, I'm certainly not in favor of slavery, but I don't think "equality" is the natural order of anything. Nature is NOT fair, That is an interesting observation, but I am not sure that we should determine our actions based on insects To go with the analogy, these insects are not enslaving their own species. Some insects are opportunistic cannibals, many have an obvious heirarchy. Queens however are born to be queens, and drones to be drones. They are directly dependent on each other, and that IS the natural order. Translate it to mankind, you have the concepts of being born to be 'king', and the caste system, where we are all born 'unequal' by nature. These ideas of 'natural order' were accepted for centuries, by our modern standard they are silly.
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anastasia Member (Idle past 5979 days) Posts: 1857 From: Bucks County, PA Joined: |
Ringo writes: So, to aim in the general direction of the topic: What "should be", with regard to discrimination against homosexuals? What is the "natural order" with respect to homosexuals? What "inalienable rights" do homosexuals have? Obviously they have the same rights to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. They have the right to vote, to hold office, to gain access to any job they would choose. If it is sinful, that is an opinion...but even if it were, being free of sin is not a criteria for any resume or right to exist peacefully. If 'sinners' were allowed to be discriminated against by those who consider them such, we would have to go after masturbators as well Having a right to marriage is a bit more tricky, only because that right is denied to other folks based on the same reasoning. Relatives, for example, can't marry legally. We aren't legally allowed to marry more than one person, even if there is love and commitment and child-rearing going on. Of course, being allowed to take Holy Orders as a priest is not an inalienable right.
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anastasia Member (Idle past 5979 days) Posts: 1857 From: Bucks County, PA Joined: |
kuresu writes: your arguments against homosexuality have about as much credence as those against interracial marriages. I didn't yet mention homosexuality. I am only proposing a difference between the natural order and the temporary diversions from it such as slavery.
then how is it natural to prohibit homosexuals the right to marry and enjoy the benefits of marriage? doing so, would be unnatural, to your order. Something tells me you didn't mean this--because you find homosexuality to be an abomination before the lord. therefore, its only right to discriminate against them. But then, that destroys your order of equality, doesn't it? Would it be unnatural for me to marry my brother even if I didn't have sex? Just a question. Every human being is equal, in the eyes of the Lord especially. I firmly believe that. I also do not believe that everything we want to do makes the same amount of sense. Do I have the right to two husbands, if it makes me happy, or is somehow productive to me?
Rob, be careful. Be very careful. You claim to want equality, and yet you do not want to give equality. Psssst...I'm not Rob.
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anastasia Member (Idle past 5979 days) Posts: 1857 From: Bucks County, PA Joined: |
kuresu writes: and as a personal question, why do you have to have someone constantly reminding you such and such an action is "sinful"? is your moral fiber so weak that you have to have "sin" and the retribution that comes with it? There is always that wierd misconception that christians must have a list of 'sins' in their back pocket to refer to before they take action. God actually put a list in your back-pocket too, but He didn't sign it.
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anastasia Member (Idle past 5979 days) Posts: 1857 From: Bucks County, PA Joined: |
Ringo writes: As for plural marriages, there's no "natural" reason to eliminate them. Many societies have gotten along just fine for centuries with them. Yes, and now they throw you in prison for it.
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anastasia Member (Idle past 5979 days) Posts: 1857 From: Bucks County, PA Joined: |
TazmanianDevil writes: Ana, are you sure you know a thing or two about marriage? Nope, not the first clue. I can't even figure out my own. I just wanted to mention some other types of marital discrimination, see what came up.
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anastasia Member (Idle past 5979 days) Posts: 1857 From: Bucks County, PA Joined: |
I don't play 'the Bible says'. If a thing seems unnatural to me, there are two choices. Either it is, or I have been led to believe it is. I would not feel right marrying my bro. Even in saying that I know that my idea of marriage is intrinsically tied to 'sex', for maybe I could marry him if that were not an issue. In that case, why can't people have civil unions as brother and sister? Benefits, the whole nine?
Edited by anastasia, : missing letters
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anastasia Member (Idle past 5979 days) Posts: 1857 From: Bucks County, PA Joined: |
schrafinator writes: In 41 states in the US, it is perfectly legal to deny a job to someone because they are gay, or fire them if it is discovered that they are gay. Well, that is dumb. That is about all I can say.
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