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Author Topic:   Discrimination against homosexuals carried into the 21st century
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 116 of 313 (378523)
01-21-2007 1:20 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by kuresu
01-21-2007 1:01 AM


Re: our thoughts must be discriminating.
now then, one more comment from you about how I approve of Hitler's "final solution", or anything similar to it, and I will ask for your suspension.
I didn't imply that you had any knowledge that you supported Nazisim. In fact, I impied that you are ignorant of the logical extensions of your own thinking. You're a puppet of philosophy that is beyond your current capacity to analyze objectively. You are too caught up emotionally and attached to your worldview to see it clearly.
You understand the terms, but your thinking is not disciplined (simple) enough to see clearly. You bought into the sophistry without the ability to peel the onion because it suits your agenda that is also likely subconscious.
you've never read a bit on utilitarianism or Kant's categorical imperitive, have you?
I know nothing! I'm not as smart as a proud and confident punk kid. I'm too busy blazing new trails only to find them a beaten path. How bout you?
Here is a quote that I ran accross in my studies on Kant that beautifully portrays the issue to me.
"How recognizable, how familiar to us, is the man so beautifully portrayed in the Grundlegung, who confronted even with Christ, turns away to consider the judgement of his own conscience and to hear the voice of his own reason. Stripped of the exiguous metaphysical background which Kant was prepared to allow him, this man is with us still, free, independent, lonely, powerful, rational, responsible, brave, the hero of many novels and books in moral philosophy. The raison d'tre of this attractive but misleading creature is not far to seek. He is the offspring of the age of science, confidently rational and yet increasingly aware of his alienation from the material universe which his discoveries reveal ... In fact, Kant's man had already received a glorious incarnation nearly a century earlier in the work of Milton: his proper name is Lucifer"
(Iris Murdoch/ 1970/ The Sovereignty of Good)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by kuresu, posted 01-21-2007 1:01 AM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by kuresu, posted 01-21-2007 1:44 AM Rob has replied
 Message 123 by Larni, posted 01-21-2007 7:30 AM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 118 of 313 (378533)
01-21-2007 2:07 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by kuresu
01-21-2007 1:44 AM


Re: oh boy, here we go again
I ask you again, how can I, who does not believe in Sin (by nature of being an atheist), determine right and wrong? To give you hint--I obviously can, since I declare Hitler's actions wrong and even evil. My basis isn't sin, so what is it?
I never said you cannot be good or act morally as an atheist. I only made the case that there is no logical reason to be good. Anthony Flew finally understood after 80 some years that his philosophy cannot hold water. Why can't you see it? Because you don't want Christianity to be true for your own reasons.
C.S. Lewis said that when he was an atheist he did not believe God existed (hence the atheism). But he also said he was very angry with God for not existing, because life became meaningless.
Jesus did not come into the world to make bad people good. He came to make dead people live. To help those dead to God, to become alive to God. To open the eyes of the blind.
Without God, life is not being.... it is only existing. Hence Nietzche's philosophy of despair (nihilism) which Hitler promptly married with Darwinism to underscore the need for the strong to eliminate the weaker for the sake of humanity.
Hitler said it is the devils concoction that we are all equal.
And if there is no God or transcendant basis for morality, then he is right.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by kuresu, posted 01-21-2007 1:44 AM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by kuresu, posted 01-21-2007 2:12 AM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 120 of 313 (378538)
01-21-2007 2:16 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by kuresu
01-21-2007 2:12 AM


Re: oh boy, here we go again
why do I need a reason other than "it is the .... thing to do"?
Because in Germany, the 'thing to do' was kill Jews.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by kuresu, posted 01-21-2007 2:12 AM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by kuresu, posted 01-21-2007 2:24 AM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 124 of 313 (378601)
01-21-2007 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by kuresu
01-21-2007 2:24 AM


Re: oh boy, here we go again
I determine my own, my own right and wrong
No Kuresu, you are the one who missed it. You determined nothing. You own nothing. You have no right. And you are wrong.
You don't own the power to choose. Everything was given to you. If you claim it as your own, you will become a devil.
You are not God. Not even of your own life. You are dependant. You are utterly dependant... upon the laws of physics; energy, and matter... and upon the moral law; information and reason itself.
God has already thought of everything. What do you bring to the table that is new. You depend upon Kant? What new wisdom did you find in your youth? Only the same old beaten path...
Dependant you came, and dependant you will leave. Energy can neither be created nor desroyed I'm afraid. 'There is nothing new under the sun'. It's only new to you...
Job 13:6 Hear now my argument; listen to the plea of my lips. 7 Will you speak wickedly on God's behalf? Will you speak deceitfully for him? 8 Will you show him partiality? Will you argue the case for God? 9 Would it turn out well if he examined you? Could you deceive him as you might deceive men? 10 He would surely rebuke you if you secretly showed partiality. 11 Would not his splendor terrify you? Would not the dread of him fall on you? 12 Your maxims are proverbs of ashes; your defenses are defenses of clay.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by kuresu, posted 01-21-2007 2:24 AM kuresu has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by jar, posted 01-21-2007 11:45 AM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 125 of 313 (378602)
01-21-2007 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Larni
01-21-2007 7:30 AM


Re: our thoughts must be discriminating.
More insulting bullshit, Rob?
Yes, to some the truth is offensive, because they are self-righteous.
Luke 11:45 One of the experts in the law answered him, "Teacher, when you say these things, you insult us also." 46 Jesus replied, "And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Larni, posted 01-21-2007 7:30 AM Larni has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 126 of 313 (378606)
01-21-2007 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Larni
01-21-2007 7:27 AM


Re: our thoughts must be discriminating.
Do you know anything about psychology? This is basic stuff.
I know some. I know what Hobart Mowrer concluded. Mowrer, the one time president of the American psychological association. Proffessor at Harvard and other leading institutions.
"For several decades we psychologists looked upon the whole matter of sin and moral accountability as a great incubus and acclaimed our liberation from it as epoch making. But at length we have discovered that to be free in this sense, that is, to have the excuse of being sick rather than sinful, is to court the danger of also becoming lost . In becoming amoral, ethically neutral and free, we have cut the very roots of our being, lost our deepest sense of selfhood and identity, and with neurotics, themselves, we find ourselves asking: Who am I, what is my deepest destiny, what does living mean?"
(Hobart Mowrer, "Sin, the Lesser of Two Evils," American Psychologist, 15 (1960): 301-304.)
Mowrer said he received more angry email from fellow psychologists than on any other piece he had written. He commited suicide at the age of 72 if my memory serves me.
I understand his lonelyness in this world gone mad. Psychology is bankrupt spiritually and underestimates our wounds.
Jeremiah 6:14 They dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious. 'Peace, peace,' they say, when there is no peace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Larni, posted 01-21-2007 7:27 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Fosdick, posted 01-21-2007 11:25 AM Rob has replied
 Message 135 by Larni, posted 01-21-2007 12:39 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 129 of 313 (378617)
01-21-2007 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Fosdick
01-21-2007 11:25 AM


Re: our thoughts must be discriminating.
And then there was the "King of Peace" who said in Matthew 10:34-36:
Very good... What a hoot! I'd like to share a clip from my own thinking on the quantum, and it's relation to logic.
I believe that is why C.S. Lewis wrote the following:
“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: ”I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept His claim to be God.’ That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic”on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg”or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”
The monistic worldview is nothing more than an attempt to escape from individual responsibility and the only way to maintain such a position consistently, albeit an obstinate and rebellious posture, is to declare 'one’s self' as God. For most monists, it is far less confrontational to speak without such clarity. They like to avoid the necessity and inevitability of the conflict. The monist prefers to say that we are evolving into the divine. But by implication this is a theology of default divinity be it evolving or not. As in the disagreement over Jesus Christ’s claims, this claim is either the greatest blasphemy, or the greatest truth. The stakes are enormous.
Since much of the quantum’s incredible properties involve light and the difficulty of putting a finger on its true nature, it is exceptionally noteworthy that Jesus said the following: 'I am the light of the world' (John 9; 5) ”I have come into the world as a light’ (John 12; 46). ”This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God (John 3; 19).
You can read the whole piece here if you wish: http://EvC Forum: Must religion be logical? -->EvC Forum: Must religion be logical?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Fosdick, posted 01-21-2007 11:25 AM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Fosdick, posted 01-21-2007 11:52 AM Rob has replied
 Message 137 by Larni, posted 01-21-2007 12:44 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 131 of 313 (378619)
01-21-2007 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by jar
01-21-2007 11:45 AM


Re: right and wrong.
I'm sorry but that is not just bullshit
I didn't say it was. You are the one who uses such language in light of lacking intelligence.
You are the one who continues to misrepresent and label...
For the 1,817th time you said:
The rest of the post is just some more blather and jabberwocky.
Why the Admins tolerate your insolence and non-arguments is one of the great 'mysteries of confounded Babylon'.
I will no longer respond to any of your posts. And I would appriciate it if you would refrain from muddying the waters of crystal clear reason.
Re 15:2 And I saw what looked like a sea of glass mixed with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and over the number of his name. They held harps given them by God

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by jar, posted 01-21-2007 11:45 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by jar, posted 01-21-2007 12:14 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 132 of 313 (378621)
01-21-2007 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by Fosdick
01-21-2007 11:52 AM


Re: our thoughts must be discriminating.
Jesus was a photon?
No, not was...
In a sense He is a photon (the photon); the morning star!
But only in terms of truth, and truth's uncanny characteristics shared only with light.
You see? The heavens declare His glory. The physical world is a reflection of his spiritual reality. It is amazing!
Psalm 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Fosdick, posted 01-21-2007 11:52 AM Fosdick has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 134 of 313 (378628)
01-21-2007 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by jar
01-21-2007 12:14 PM


Re: right and wrong.
hat I actually said was "I'm sorry but that is not just bullshit, it is also refuted by the Bible. "
I went on to explain in depth:
Man was given the capability of knowing right from wrong. All mankind, not just Christians, and regardless of whether or not they believe in God. All that was given was the capability to make choices, and the charge to try to choose wisely.
Those capabilities and that responsibility ARE your own. You own them.
This the Bible doesn't say that at all jar... you say that!
The Bible makes it plain that we were not to have such knowledge. We took it and claimed it as our own.
That's it! The bible says what it says. If you don't agree with it fine. But you didn't write it!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by jar, posted 01-21-2007 12:14 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by jar, posted 01-21-2007 12:42 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 142 of 313 (378643)
01-21-2007 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Larni
01-21-2007 12:39 PM


Re: our thoughts must be discriminating.
You might want to read some of Victor Frankl's work if you are interested in straight psychology.
He suffered through two different concentration camps in Germany and is far more in touch with reality in my opinion.
Suffering does that to a man... and that is why Jeus preached the cross bound journey as the way to real enlightenment.
Your expose on guilt is sick and twisted. I don't have a sense of guilt. My heart is free... God has taken the world on his shoulders and taken responsibility for it all. He took the blame. Not out of guilt, but love.
How can you so misunderstand the cross?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Larni, posted 01-21-2007 12:39 PM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Larni, posted 01-21-2007 1:59 PM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 143 of 313 (378645)
01-21-2007 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Larni
01-21-2007 12:44 PM


Re: our thoughts must be discriminating.
thought the Morning Star was Satan. Bit blasphemous?
The morning star is the morning star. Satan is only an imposter. What is there to not understand about this. It ain't rocket science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Larni, posted 01-21-2007 12:44 PM Larni has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 145 of 313 (378649)
01-21-2007 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by jar
01-21-2007 12:42 PM


Re: right and wrong.
Even if you think homosexuality is a sin, that is insufficient reason to justify discrimination.
Other peoples sins are none of your business.
So you discriminate against 'discrimination'? Then it's none of your business?
Do you discriminate against beastiality?
Do you discriminate against child porn?
What is the matter with you?
Your accusations of nonsense, are themselves nonsense. Your position is one of pure adulterated interference and intentional muddying of the waters. You churn the sea with your sophistry and make hovoc of 'reason'.
Job 41:24 His chest is hard as rock, hard as a lower millstone. 25 When he rises up, the mighty are terrified; they retreat before his thrashing. 26 The sword that reaches him has no effect, nor does the spear or the dart or the javelin. 27 Iron he treats like straw and bronze like rotten wood. 28 Arrows do not make him flee; slingstones are like chaff to him. 29 A club seems to him but a piece of straw; he laughs at the rattling of the lance. 30 His undersides are jagged potsherds, leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge. 31 He makes the depths churn like a boiling caldron and stirs up the sea like a pot of ointment. 32 Behind him he leaves a glistening wake; one would think the deep had white hair. 33 Nothing on earth is his equal-- a creature without fear. 34 He looks down on all that are haughty; he is king over all that are proud."
A beast you have become in your rage! Come to your senses jar and be a man.
God is not afraid of you, and neither am I. He has you completely surrounded and contained on a lonely little blue planet in the vaccume of space. You are a threat to no-one who listens to the voice of Him who sit's on the throne and will make you his footstool.
Your bullets fall to the ground at my command, because the command is given in the name of Jesus.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by jar, posted 01-21-2007 12:42 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by jar, posted 01-21-2007 1:53 PM Rob has replied
 Message 153 by jar, posted 01-21-2007 2:17 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 146 of 313 (378651)
01-21-2007 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by nator
01-21-2007 1:06 PM


Re: a newer, gentler misogyny
What's the difference?
The difference... and the point is... that if you worship God as God, you will respect others as yourself.
It is about Godliness through and though...
So as the relation to the thread (which I see the queen is reminding us of)...
If we respect others as Godly, we will naturally expect also that they behave in a Godly fashion. Homosexuality is not Godly.
That does not mean that God hates homosexuals. It means that God hates homosexuality, and exhorts those who practice it to repent of it and ask for his help to be healed of the pain that causes us to seek love in all the wrong places.
God wants to heal wounds, not condemn us for having received them from others. Nor does he want the others to be condemned for giving the wounds. he exhorts us all to forgive and show mercy and repent.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by nator, posted 01-21-2007 1:06 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by nator, posted 01-21-2007 1:51 PM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 149 of 313 (378655)
01-21-2007 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by nator
01-21-2007 1:09 PM


Re: our thoughts must be discriminating.
Are you saying that Hitler was speaking the truth and was silenced by society?
C'mon nator...
Society was right to fight him, because right and wrong are real things which we expect others to know without being told or having to argue through meaningless minutia.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by nator, posted 01-21-2007 1:09 PM nator has not replied

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