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Author Topic:   Discrimination against homosexuals carried into the 21st century
ringo
Member
Posts: 16613
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 241 of 313 (379086)
01-22-2007 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Fosdick
01-22-2007 8:33 PM


Re: My excuse for being rational
Hoot Mon writes:

the MAJORITY of people agree with me. Every poll show that.

So what? Not long ago, the MAJORITY of people agreed with segregating black and white. Not long before that, the MAJORITY of people agreed with slavery.

The MAJORITY opinion has no bearing on right and wrong.

We are dealing with opinions here, not facts of civil equality.

Still nonsense, even if you repeat it.

Answer the question: What is equal about "gay people can't marry"?


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Fosdick, posted 01-22-2007 8:33 PM Fosdick has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by Fosdick, posted 01-23-2007 12:04 PM ringo has responded

docpotato
Member (Idle past 3209 days)
Posts: 334
From: Portland, OR
Joined: 07-18-2003


Message 242 of 313 (379087)
01-22-2007 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Fosdick
01-22-2007 8:33 PM


Re: My excuse for being rational
Boys, boys. In the Land of Milk and Honey, just south of Canuckistan, the MAJORITY of people agree with me.

You should start a club. You know you'll have plenty of members and you can charge dues, so you would make a lot of money.

Otherwise, who cares?

We are dealing with opinions here, not facts of civil equality.

Oh yeah, you should tell that to a friend of mine. He's gay, from England, has been in a relationship with his partner for 10 years. The partner was transferred to America. My friend doesn't have a job that will sponsor his visa. So, he can't stay in the country with his partner because no one is willing to recognize that these two are, for all intents and purposes, married. Just an opinion.

And your opinions are not going anywhere important soon, because your opinions are basically not biological.

Dan was right: Your cat's breath DOES smell like cat food. This is pure nonsense, Ralph.

Edited by docpotato, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Fosdick, posted 01-22-2007 8:33 PM Fosdick has responded

Replies to this message:
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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3662 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 243 of 313 (379091)
01-22-2007 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by docpotato
01-22-2007 8:42 PM


Re: My excuse for being rational
Dan was right: Your cat's breath DOES smell like cat food. This is pure nonsense, Ralph.

You're soooo cruel!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by docpotato, posted 01-22-2007 8:42 PM docpotato has not yet responded

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 1454 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 244 of 313 (379093)
01-22-2007 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by Fosdick
01-22-2007 7:29 PM


Re: My excuse for being rational
My father is old so I know where you are coming from. Admittedly, old people do have the advantage of experience. However, this advantage can sometime turn into a false sense of security.

In our last family reunion, I was driving my father to the store to buy some bread other essentials because we ate more stuff than originally planned. On the way there, my father complained to me that my sister and brother had arranged a "sleep over" for their sons. My father told me that that is the reason why young people these days are gay. They are gay because they are given the opportunity at every turn to be gay. Furthermore, he told me that back in his days, nobody was gay. I asked him why, and he said that if people ever found out if someone was gay they'd beat it out of him.

Against my better judgement, I voiced my protest, saying gay people are none of our bussiness and that I'm pretty sure one doesn't "choose" to be gay. But you know what, my father eventually won the debate with the "I'm older, I have more experience, therefore I'm right."

You "old people" have been through a lot of experiences, and I certainly respect you guys for it. But having more experience doesn't always mean you are right.

A long time ago, marriage was only for a free man and a free woman. Slaves didn't count. Later on, tradition changed and marriage became a union between a man and a woman of the same race. In over a dozen states, it was illegal for a man and a woman of different skin color to get married and the punishment for violation of this law could be up to half a decade in prison.

Now, some people, like myself, who I might add see marriage as more than just sacred, that it is a life long commitment, simply want the law to extend the protection of marriage to include a wider range of people. To people like me, this is simply the continuation of a very long history of the societal evolution of marriage.

I've mentioned this before and I'll say it again. I like being married because of joint tax benefits and 1000+ other legal rights. I go to bed every night knowing my wife could never be made to testify in court against me (and vice versa). I go to bed every night knowing that if tomorrow I die from some major accident my wife will automatically inherit everything I owned plus the life insurance money.

But the reason I like being married so much goes beyond legal issues. I absolutely love the fact that everytime we go out to meet people I could just introduce my wife to people as "my wife" and there would be no doubt in anyone's mind that this is the most important person in my life. Whenever we go out to buy anything, my wife would be the person to pick things out (I have no sense of fashion). I love the fact that whenever a store worker asks me what I need all I have to say is "go help my wife" and that person would treat my wife and I as one person. I love the fact that whenever we go on a vacation we could just introduce ourselves to people and everyone would automatically assume we ain't going anywhere without each other.

In fact, when we first moved into our neighborhood, we were greeted by our new neighbors. A few months after, a new couple moved in across the street from ours. Only after a few days, people had already started gossiping about the people across the street. You know why? Because they were not married. When I went over to introduce myself and told her about my wife, she introduced herself and her "boyfriend". While people hate to admit this, being a girlfriend or boyfriend carries a lot less weight in our society. Being a "gay partner" even carries a lot lesser weight.

Some time ago, I attended a symbolic wedding of two men who had been together for 20 years. That sure beats Britteny Spear's 52 hour just-for-fun marriage. The very sight of these two men being together like that made me had no doubt that they love each other just as much, if not more, as how much I love my wife. They looked into each other's eyes and took turn to say "I do" to one another. Now, remember that this is after 20 years of being together.

Later, I found out that only the parents of one of them attended the wedding. After 20 years, the parents of the other one still refused to acknowledge the love these two men had for each other.

It frightens me to think that if these two men have a joint bank account and something happens to one of them the family of the deceased one could take legal actions to take everything, including the house, and leave the other man with absolutely nothing. It's happened before to people I have known of. If there is some kind of legal complications, they would not have spousal protection. They'd be made to testify against one another.

But beyond that, they can't go out and introduce themselves as being spouses without getting weird looks. They can't take a vacation knowing they are protected fully by the law.

But you know what, the thing that really openned my eyes about the struggle they still go through to get recognized for their love for each other was when one of them gave me a call and told me it was a gay wedding to make sure I knew ahead of time. Someone told him about my unfortunate past (I used to hate gay people in the name of christ). I can't imagine having to worry about something like that when we were planning our wedding just because we were a straight couple.

Now, to make this post even longer, let's address the issue of civil union.

Civil union is an excuse conjured up by politicians who are bigots but want to hide their bigotry. Every state that has a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage also has a ban on any and all form of union between two gay people that even remotely resemble marriage. People who argue for civil union rather than "gay marriage" do so because they know civil union is an impossible feat to accomplished. They know that civil union would never be accepted by either straight or gay people. They know that civil union looks good on paper and make a good sound bite but it will never lead to anywhere.

I, too, once thought civil union was the solution to the whole issue. But the concept of civil union only addresses the legal part of the issue. The issue is much wider than who gets what rights. The issue also encompasses how society as a whole as well as the individual view such unity/bond between two people. Civil union simply doesn't have what it takes to give gay people legal as well as societal rights that they deserve.

I speak as a person who once held signs that said something along the line of god hates fags. I speak as a person who once told gay people they were going to hell. I speak as a person who once thought up of ways to rid our society of gay people in my spare time. And in my prime youth I once even said the only good gays were dead gays.

Gay people have taken a lot of shit from the rest of us. I don't think it is too much for them to ask to be legally and socially recognized when they fall in love and decide to spend the rest of their lives together.


AKA G.A.S.B.Y.

George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger


This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Fosdick, posted 01-22-2007 7:29 PM Fosdick has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by Larni, posted 01-23-2007 4:15 AM Taz has not yet responded
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19865
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 245 of 313 (379094)
01-22-2007 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by docpotato
01-22-2007 8:23 PM


Re: The definition of a word
Changing "Marriage is ONLY between a man and a woman."

The problem is that "marriage" is not only about sexual relationships - it is about property rights, income tax rates, medical rights, immigration rights, etc etc etc.

The issue of child care is covered by adoptive regulations and is not related to sexual relations either.

Now I would be perfectly happy to have marriage restricted to being only about sexual relationships and everything else being due to social unions or alliances.

So lets divide the issue - sex = some union some people can call marriage if they want to

Everything else is a legal union of two (or more) people. The legal part is what defines which laws are applicable -- not the sex.

Enjoy.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by docpotato, posted 01-22-2007 8:23 PM docpotato has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 246 of 313 (379095)
01-22-2007 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by Fosdick
01-22-2007 7:54 PM


Re: My excuse for being rational
I just happen to hold the opinion that marriage is for opposite sexes in order for them to start a family.

Fair enough. How about your opinion can dictate the terms of your marriage, and other people's opinions can govern their own? And then you can stop all the bigoted panty-sniffing?

By the way - how, exactly, does a libertarian come to the conclusion that he gets veto power over other people's marriages?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Fosdick, posted 01-22-2007 7:54 PM Fosdick has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Fosdick, posted 01-23-2007 11:55 AM crashfrog has responded

Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6616
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 247 of 313 (379098)
01-22-2007 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Fosdick
01-22-2007 8:33 PM


Re: My excuse for being rational
quote:
...your opinions are basically not biological.

Well, neither is yours. We're talking about marriage, which is entirely a social construction.


But government...is not simply the way we express ourselves collectively but also often the only way we preserve our freedom from private power and its incursions. -- Bill Moyers (quoting John Schwarz)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Fosdick, posted 01-22-2007 8:33 PM Fosdick has not yet responded

Larni
Member
Posts: 3976
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 248 of 313 (379150)
01-23-2007 4:02 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by docpotato
01-22-2007 5:40 PM


Re: My excuse for being rational
Nope, it was Lisa's brainiac friend's Father when she could not play the anagram game.

Do I win 5 pounds?

Edited by Larni, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by docpotato, posted 01-22-2007 5:40 PM docpotato has not yet responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3976
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 249 of 313 (379152)
01-23-2007 4:15 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by Taz
01-22-2007 9:14 PM


Re: My excuse for being rational
Fine post, that man.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Taz, posted 01-22-2007 9:14 PM Taz has not yet responded

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 250 of 313 (379185)
01-23-2007 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by Fosdick
01-22-2007 7:54 PM


Re: My excuse for being rational
Ralph writes:

What is bigoted about me if I support equal civil-union rights for gays? And please don't send me back to those water fountains again.

Lemme whip this one through the ol' Ralphometer, see if we can get a translation going.

"What is bigoted about me if I support equal civil-union rights for gays? And please don't actually tell me what's bigoted about me, because you've already done so for, like, three whole threads. I didn't listen then, what on Earth makes you think I'm going to listen now? It's much more fun to just keep repeating myself. When I grow up, I'm going to Bovine University!"


"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert
This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Fosdick, posted 01-22-2007 7:54 PM Fosdick has not yet responded

Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3662 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 251 of 313 (379199)
01-23-2007 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by Taz
01-22-2007 9:14 PM


Cat food
TD wrote:

Civil union is an excuse conjured up by politicians who are bigots but want to hide their bigotry.


Yum! Cat food!

Civil union simply doesn't have what it takes to give gay people legal as well as societal rights that they deserve.

Well that's only a matter of legislation. Why don't take it up with your local politicians.

Gay people have taken a lot of shit from the rest of us. I don't think it is too much for them to ask to be legally and socially recognized when they fall in love and decide to spend the rest of their lives together.

"Legally and socially recognized"? Isn't that the objective of civil unions?

TD, nice try. But you need to listen more carefully to your seniors. We have walked many paths and seen strange things. Someday your children will tell you you're out of step, irrevelant, antiquated. Someday your breath will smell like catfood, too.

—Hoot Mon


This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Taz, posted 01-22-2007 9:14 PM Taz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by Dan Carroll, posted 01-23-2007 11:50 AM Fosdick has not yet responded
 Message 253 by ringo, posted 01-23-2007 11:52 AM Fosdick has responded
 Message 254 by Chiroptera, posted 01-23-2007 11:55 AM Fosdick has not yet responded
 Message 264 by Taz, posted 01-23-2007 12:49 PM Fosdick has not yet responded
 Message 277 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-23-2007 3:01 PM Fosdick has not yet responded

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 252 of 313 (379202)
01-23-2007 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by Fosdick
01-23-2007 11:30 AM


Re: Cat food
TD, nice try. But you need to listen more carefully to your seniors. We have walked many paths and seen strange things. Someday your children will tell you you're out of step, irrevelant, antiquated. Someday your breath will smell like catfood, too.

Oh, Ralph, no. I realize you're very old, and often get confused. But you haven't been named Ralph Wiggum because you're an old man. In fact, your namesake is a fictional eight-year-old, with severe learning disabilities.


"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert
This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Fosdick, posted 01-23-2007 11:30 AM Fosdick has not yet responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 16613
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 253 of 313 (379203)
01-23-2007 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by Fosdick
01-23-2007 11:30 AM


Hoot Mon writes:

"Legally and socially recognized"? Isn't that the objective of civil unions?

That objective is inadequate.

Black people were "legally and socially" recognized as citizens, but segregation still deprived them of equal education, etc. As long as any group is singled out for different legal and/or social recognition, there is no equality.

You still haven't answered the question: What is equal about telling gay people they are not allowed to marry?


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Fosdick, posted 01-23-2007 11:30 AM Fosdick has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by Fosdick, posted 01-23-2007 12:25 PM ringo has responded

Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6616
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 254 of 313 (379204)
01-23-2007 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by Fosdick
01-23-2007 11:30 AM


Re: Cat food
quote:
We have walked many paths and seen strange things.

And yet, you have managed not to learn anything from the experience. Sad, but it happens.


But government...is not simply the way we express ourselves collectively but also often the only way we preserve our freedom from private power and its incursions. -- Bill Moyers (quoting John Schwarz)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Fosdick, posted 01-23-2007 11:30 AM Fosdick has not yet responded

Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3662 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 255 of 313 (379205)
01-23-2007 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by crashfrog
01-22-2007 9:31 PM


Re: My excuse for being rational
crashfrog wrote:

By the way - how, exactly, does a libertarian come to the conclusion that he gets veto power over other people's marriages?


You scored one there, frog. I got ahold of some bad cat food last night and lost my concentration. I don't know what I am politically—maybe a Dinosaurocrat. If I had my way all public school children would wear uniforms, sit up straight, and get two tablespoons of cod liver oil for lunch. Then they would all go home to find their mothers darning socks and making chocolate-chip cookies. And the cartoons on TV would NOT have any gay characters coming out of the closet.

btw: Did you know that some gays have claimed Christopher Robin as one of their own. Go figure. I don't think A. A. Milne meant that at all. What's this world coming to? The kids are humping each on the dance floor like horny toads, and mothers are telling their daughters to use blow jobs to avoid poregnancy. I guess I'm just behind the times.

—Hoot Mon


This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by crashfrog, posted 01-22-2007 9:31 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by crashfrog, posted 01-23-2007 1:05 PM Fosdick has responded
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