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Author Topic:   Discrimination against homosexuals carried into the 21st century
Chiroptera
Member (Idle past 16 days)
Posts: 6531
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003


Message 271 of 313 (379226)
01-23-2007 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by Fosdick
01-23-2007 11:55 AM


More Hoot Mon rationality!
quote:
Did you know that some gays have claimed Christopher Robin as one of their own.

Wow. This is even less relevant than your post about your experiences with wicca.


But government...is not simply the way we express ourselves collectively but also often the only way we preserve our freedom from private power and its incursions. -- Bill Moyers (quoting John Schwarz)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Fosdick, posted 01-23-2007 11:55 AM Fosdick has not yet responded

Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3580 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 272 of 313 (379227)
01-23-2007 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by crashfrog
01-23-2007 1:05 PM


Re: My excuse for being rational
c-frog wrote:

You're a bigot and a homophobe, HM. That's what you are...I had thought your brand of bigotry died with Reagan. I guess I was wrong.


Such a lot of fluff! This reminds me of those flag-waving Americans who say it is unpatriotic to oppose the war in Iraq. Your argument lacks for philosophical substance. You are the one who is narrow-minded, not me. You wave your flag for civil-rights, and you don't even know how to define them. Let's see some rationality in your argument. And don't tell me that homosexuality and race are somehow equivalent. That's a huge insult to MLK and everything he stood for. Hey, maybe you're a racist. But I don't need to reduce my argument to petty name calling. Get some stuff, for crying out load, and put it in your pop gun. Show me something with a bang in it.

—Hoot Mon


This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by crashfrog, posted 01-23-2007 1:05 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by Dan Carroll, posted 01-23-2007 1:38 PM Fosdick has not yet responded
 Message 274 by ringo, posted 01-23-2007 1:39 PM Fosdick has responded
 Message 275 by crashfrog, posted 01-23-2007 2:04 PM Fosdick has not yet responded

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 273 of 313 (379230)
01-23-2007 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by Fosdick
01-23-2007 1:25 PM


Re: My excuse for being rational
Ralph writes:

And don't tell me that homosexuality and race are somehow equivalent.

Unless sexuality somehow negates the fourteenth amendment, sure they are.

You know, it's possible you've never read the fourteenth amendment. I know we've posted it several times, but it's still seems pretty likely that you just sorta scanned it and thought, "I choo-choo-choose you." Here, I'll throw it out one more time.

quote:
All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

The people you want to single out and prevent from marrying... are they citizens under that definition? Yes they are. Oh, shit. Can't single them out to be treated differently.

Now, honestly, I'd like to give you a chance to correct me, should I be missing something. So if you can see some sort of equivalent to the phrase, "unless you're one of those dudes who does it with dudes, that's just messed up," in there, feel free to point it out.


"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert
This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Fosdick, posted 01-23-2007 1:25 PM Fosdick has not yet responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 16242
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 274 of 313 (379231)
01-23-2007 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by Fosdick
01-23-2007 1:25 PM


Re: My excuse for being rational
Hoot Mon writes:

And don't tell me that homosexuality and race are somehow equivalent.

If you think there is a difference, why don't you show us the difference instead of just decreeing it? Until you can show a difference between racist bigotry and homophobic bigotry, bigotry is just bigotry.

(And I'd be willing to bet that Martin Luther King, Jr. would not agree with you on this issue.)


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Fosdick, posted 01-23-2007 1:25 PM Fosdick has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by Fosdick, posted 01-23-2007 2:50 PM ringo has responded

crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 275 of 313 (379233)
01-23-2007 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by Fosdick
01-23-2007 1:25 PM


Re: My excuse for being rational
Clever, HM, but turnabouts make the least effective insults. Why don't you try insulting me with epithets I didn't just hurl at you? Try a little creativity, next time, ok?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Fosdick, posted 01-23-2007 1:25 PM Fosdick has not yet responded

Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3580 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 276 of 313 (379238)
01-23-2007 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by ringo
01-23-2007 1:39 PM


Re: My excuse for being rational
Ringo wrote:

If you think there is a difference, why don't you show us the difference instead of just decreeing it? Until you can show a difference between racist bigotry and homophobic bigotry, bigotry is just bigotry.


A person is born with a race; he/she has no choice in that matter. Nature rules absolutely. But is a person born to be gay? I don't know. I think it may be a matter of choice. Prove to me it isn't and I'll say you moved a step closer to equalizing race with sexuality. But do you really think there ought to be special laws protecting that choice? People choose to be Masons and body builders and cat owners, too; maybe they need their own special laws. I'll come around to your way of thinking when gay genes are discovered. And then there will be gay-gene therapy to straighten them out. And then we're be back to choice again.

Dan Carroll brought out the Constitution and read us an Ammendment. Nice job, Dan. But where does it say anything about same-sex "marriages"? Where does it say anything about homosexuality? Where does even say anything about sexuality at all?

Ringo, Dan, and the rest of you morality cops: Do you honestly believe that the framers of our Constitution or any of the authors of its Ammendments were the least bit concerned about the rights of gay people to get married? If you say yes, then I'm going for the history books.

—Hoot Mon


This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by ringo, posted 01-23-2007 1:39 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by Dan Carroll, posted 01-23-2007 3:04 PM Fosdick has not yet responded
 Message 279 by ringo, posted 01-23-2007 3:06 PM Fosdick has responded
 Message 285 by Taz, posted 01-23-2007 4:21 PM Fosdick has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5622
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 277 of 313 (379240)
01-23-2007 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by Fosdick
01-23-2007 11:30 AM


Re: Cat food
We have walked many paths and seen strange things. Someday your children will tell you you're out of step, irrevelant, antiquated. Someday your breath will smell like catfood, too.

:laugh:

Too true... Maybe the problem with your naysayers is that they have no foresight and no hindsight.


"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis
This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Fosdick, posted 01-23-2007 11:30 AM Fosdick has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by ringo, posted 01-23-2007 3:11 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded
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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 278 of 313 (379241)
01-23-2007 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by Fosdick
01-23-2007 2:50 PM


Re: My excuse for being rational
Ralph writes:

I think it may be a matter of choice.

Oh, you got around to renting that gay porn? Chose to let it turn you on, did you?

Shall we give it... what, an hour before Ralph says, "no, I think it's probably genetic," then another hour, once he thinks we've forgotten, before he says, "no, I think it's a choice."

Dan Carroll brought out the Constitution and read us an Ammendment. Nice job, Dan. But where does it say anything about same-sex "marriages"? Where does it say anything about homosexuality? Where does even say anything about sexuality at all?

That's what I asked you to find, Ralph. See, I found you the part where it guarantees all citizens equal treatment. Unless you can point to a clause that says homosexuals aren't citizens, or that the equal protection doesn't count when it comes to homosexuals, the matter's settled; homosexuals, being citizens of the country, get equal treatment.

If straight people can get married, so can gay people.

Do you honestly believe that the framers of our Constitution...

I know for a fact that I already pointed out to you, in a different thread, that the fourteenth amendment was not written by the framers of our Constitution.

I guess you did just glance at it and think, "It says choo-choo-choose you, and there's a picture of a train!"


"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert
This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Fosdick, posted 01-23-2007 2:50 PM Fosdick has not yet responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 16242
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 279 of 313 (379242)
01-23-2007 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by Fosdick
01-23-2007 2:50 PM


Re: My excuse for being rational
Hoot Mon writes:

But is a person born to be gay? I don't know.

And yet you feel free to discriminate on the basis of what you don't know.

I think it may be a matter of choice. Prove to me it isn't and I'll say you moved a step closer to equalizing race with sexuality.

That's not the way it works. You prove that homosexuality is nothing but a choice and then you can treat it like any other choice.

The way human rights works is: equal until proven unequal.

But do you really think there ought to be special laws protecting that choice?

You are the one who is advocating special laws to discriminate against the "choice". I'm just saying, "let same-sex couples marry under the same laws as anybody else."

People choose to be Masons and body builders and cat owners, too; maybe they need their own special laws.

No. We need to not pass special laws to discriminate against Masons, body builders and cat owners.

Ringo, Dan, and the rest of you morality cops....

Wait a minute. You're the one who wants to police gay marriage, not us.

Do you honestly believe that the framers of our Constitution or any of the authors of its Ammendments were the least bit concerned about the rights of gay people to get married?

They also owned slaves and denied women the vote.

At least be consistent. When you advocate anti-gay legislation, at least devote equal time for campaigning to reinstate slavery and restore the vote to only propertied white males.


Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Fosdick, posted 01-23-2007 2:50 PM Fosdick has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by Fosdick, posted 01-23-2007 3:44 PM ringo has responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 16242
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 280 of 313 (379243)
01-23-2007 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by Hyroglyphx
01-23-2007 3:01 PM


Re: Cat food
nemesis_juggernaut writes:

Maybe the problem with your naysayers is that they have no foresight and no hindsight.

It's better to be sightless than heartless.


Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-23-2007 3:01 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

Chiroptera
Member (Idle past 16 days)
Posts: 6531
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003


Message 281 of 313 (379244)
01-23-2007 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by Hyroglyphx
01-23-2007 3:01 PM


Re: Cat food
Heh. You're right. Let's apply a little foresight to this problem:

If we allow gays to get married, then gays will get married.

Maybe hindsight is better:

Well, the anti-miscegenationists were right -- once we allowed mixed race marriages, it was pretty much a given that the homosexuals would want the same rights. What fools we were!

Is this what you had in mind?


But government...is not simply the way we express ourselves collectively but also often the only way we preserve our freedom from private power and its incursions. -- Bill Moyers (quoting John Schwarz)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-23-2007 3:01 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3580 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 282 of 313 (379248)
01-23-2007 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by ringo
01-23-2007 3:06 PM


Re: My excuse for being rational
Hoot wrote:

Do you honestly believe that the framers of our Constitution or any of the authors of its Ammendments were the least bit concerned about the rights of gay people to get married?


They also owned slaves and denied women the vote.

Well, that doesn't say a lot for the U.S. Constitution then, does it? Maybe we should throw out the whole darn thing and start over. This time let's give the Indians a better shake. I don't see anybody bothered by the abused they've taken. Let's have special laws for anybody who feels deprived, marginalized, downtrodden, and queer in any way.

Dan, Ringo, please draft me a new Constitution. Let's trash that old one written by those awful bigots. Let's have everybody and their dogs get married. Let's have special laws assuring equal rights for pole sitters and coin collectors. See if you can fit it all in. And while you're at it, add an Ammendment to protect old people from being abused by ridiculous concepts...like the right to same-sex "marriage," and the right to gerrymander political districts, and the right to buy assault weapons at gun shows. I'd also get rid of the anti-sodomy laws, too. I don't mind what those fairies do behind closed doors. I just don't see the need to run it up the flag pole.

—Hoot Mon


This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by ringo, posted 01-23-2007 3:06 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by Dan Carroll, posted 01-23-2007 3:52 PM Fosdick has not yet responded
 Message 284 by ringo, posted 01-23-2007 4:13 PM Fosdick has not yet responded

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 283 of 313 (379249)
01-23-2007 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by Fosdick
01-23-2007 3:44 PM


Re: My excuse for being rational
Ralph writes:

Well, that doesn't say a lot for the U.S. Constitution then, does it?

It says nothing about it one way or the other. Their prejudices weren't written into it. And knowing that they'd get some things wrong, they left the ability to amend it. Which we've done several times, one instance of which is that fourteenth amendment, which you keep avoiding.

I can understand why you're avoiding it. If one actually sits and reads the fourteenth amendment, there's no way to avoid allowing gay marriage.

That's okay, though. At this point, I'm sure no one here expects you to be able to read.


"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert
This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by Fosdick, posted 01-23-2007 3:44 PM Fosdick has not yet responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 16242
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 284 of 313 (379261)
01-23-2007 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by Fosdick
01-23-2007 3:44 PM


Hoot Mon writes:

This time let's give the Indians a better shake. I don't see anybody bothered by the abused they've taken.

Still bragging about what you don't see.

Let's have special laws for anybody who feels deprived, marginalized, downtrodden, and queer in any way.

You're not paying attention: I said, "Let's NOT have special laws to discriminate against any of those groups."

YOU are the one who wants to segregate gays into their own non-marriage ghetto.

... please draft me a new Constitution. Let's trash that old one written by those awful bigots.

No need for that. Just use it as it was written, not as bigots wish it was written.

Let's have special laws assuring equal rights for pole sitters and coin collectors.

Still not paying attention. We don't need any "special laws" to assure equal rights. We just need to prevent the passage of "special laws" that remove equal rights from anybody.


Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by Fosdick, posted 01-23-2007 3:44 PM Fosdick has not yet responded

Taz
Member (Idle past 1371 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 285 of 313 (379264)
01-23-2007 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by Fosdick
01-23-2007 2:50 PM


Re: My excuse for being rational
Hoot writes:

But is a person born to be gay? I don't know. I think it may be a matter of choice. Prove to me it isn't and I'll say you moved a step closer to equalizing race with sexuality.

I thought we had this cleared out in the other thread, but I guess you are one to forget easily.

In this post of this thread, I showed evidence that an experimental procedure involving changing the hormonal balance within a subject's brain could change the subject's sexuality. This, to me at least, implicates that one's sexuality is more than a regular everyday choice that we make.

But if you disagree with my take on this, perhaps you'd like to comment on what kind of implication such an experimental procedure tell us?

Edited by Tazmanian Devil, : added in hoot's quote


AKA G.A.S.B.Y.

George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger


This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Fosdick, posted 01-23-2007 2:50 PM Fosdick has responded

Replies to this message:
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