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Author Topic:   The New Neo-Nazi's
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3069 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 1 of 159 (102946)
04-26-2004 11:46 PM


Prior to World War 2 New Orthodox theologians and their philosophical friends in the secular world believed that sin was ignorance and education was the cure.
Post World War 2 these theologians abandoned this belief wholesale. They witnessed the most educated nation on Earth commit the unspeakable Holocaust - 6 million Jews slaughtered.
Nazi Germany was propelled and equipped by highly educated men, yet this education/knowledge did not cure sin, it is a fact that the intelligence of these men was used to perfect sin via the atrocities committed against the Jewish race.
New Orthodoxy returned to the spring/source/Bible for answers. They re-discovered that which was already there. Man has a "bent" in his nature, a proclivity to want to do evil/sin. They were re-awakened
to the Biblical truth of original sin.
The Doctrine of Original Sin says: Because of Adam/Eve sin, we are born separated from God with a sinning nature. We are not sinners because we commit sins, rather, we commit sin because we are sinners.
Yet, most importantly, the truth of what God said about the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is apparent: There is NO POWER in the knowledge of good and evil to CHOOSE the good over the evil APART from God.
I urge you to understand the above statement.
What it says is that you can know right and wrong/good and evil BUT man will still choose the evil and not the good because he is separated from God.
The most educated nation on Earth, Nazi Germany demonstrates this truth/fact.
Knowledge and education is not the cure for sin.
Conclusion/Point of Post:
Every American and European university professor who provides the justification and rationale and excuses for the murdercide of defenseless Israeli civilians are adopting the mantle of the Nazi's, using their ultra educational status/credentials as a tool to sin/murder Jews. They are the New Neo-Nazi's.
When is the morality of the highly educated going to reach the Jews and condemn their murders by Palestinian suicide cowards ?
{I have taken the liberty of highlighting part of the message, through the use of bold font text. I will now open the topic to debate. - Adminnemooseus
[This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 04-26-2004]
[This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 04-26-2004]
[This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 04-27-2004]

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by berberry, posted 04-27-2004 3:27 AM Cold Foreign Object has not replied
 Message 4 by Gilgamesh, posted 04-27-2004 4:26 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied
 Message 12 by sidelined, posted 04-27-2004 3:41 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied
 Message 123 by 1.61803, posted 05-03-2004 4:34 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 2 of 159 (102978)
04-27-2004 2:35 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 159 (102986)
04-27-2004 3:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object
04-26-2004 11:46 PM


WILLOWTREE writes:
quote:
Yet, most importantly, the truth of what God said about the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is apparent: There is NO POWER in the knowledge of good and evil to CHOOSE the good over the evil APART from God.
Whoever said there was? You don't need a Tree of Knowledge to understand that man has a dual nature. It doesn't require "power" to choose good, it requires will.
quote:
Every American and European university professor who provides the justification and rationale and excuses for the murdercide of defenseless Israeli civilians are adopting the mantle of the Nazi's, using their ultra educational status/credentials as a tool to sin/murder Jews. They are the New Neo-Nazi's.
(As an aside, you're mixing Old English and Latin with your word 'murdercide'. There is no such word; I suppose you mean either simply 'murder' or 'genocide'. A distinction here is important: which is it?)
I doubt there are many such professors, but I'm sure there are quite a number who hold Israelis substantially responsible for their own terrorist troubles. You and I might disagree with those professors, but that doesn't mean they are trying to justify murder.
quote:
When is the morality of the highly educated going to reach the Jews and condemn their murders by Palestinian suicide cowards ?
I agree with your sentiment to a point, but I don't think it has anything to do with being highly educated nor do I think that all of the blame for the current terrorist crisis in Israel can be layed on the Palestinians. There are too many villians and victims on both sides of that conflict.
The Palestinian / Israeli problem is too complicated to be a side-issue in any thread. If it is to be discussed we should give the subject its own topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 04-26-2004 11:46 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
Gilgamesh
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 159 (103000)
04-27-2004 4:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object
04-26-2004 11:46 PM



Prior to World War 2 New Orthodox theologians and their philosophical friends in the secular world believed that sin was ignorance and education was the cure.
I agree that ignorance (particularly that promoted by organised religion) leads to the unfortunate situation where people can be mislead, taken advantage of and exploited, but what "New Orthodox Theologians" ever promoted education as the cure for sin??

Post World War 2 these theologians abandoned this belief wholesale. They witnessed the most educated nation on Earth commit the unspeakable Holocaust - 6 million Jews slaughtered.
Nazi Germany was propelled and equipped by highly educated men, yet this education/knowledge did not cure sin, it is a fact that the intelligence of these men was used to perfect sin via the atrocities committed against the Jewish race.
Oh dear God, where do you get this stuff??
Sure Nazi Germany had some of the leading scientist minds in the world, but what makes you think that these individuals were responsible for the political decisions made by the government?
I think you'll find that most of the people who commited the atrocities on the ground weren't necessarily what you'd call the educated elite: they were a minority of thugs caught up in the political wing of the German military amchine.
Most of the educated German high class served as officers in the Wermacht. I don't believe that you can sustain the charge that most of the professional German officers soldiers were involved in commiting atrocities.

New Orthodoxy returned to the spring/source/Bible for answers. They re-discovered that which was already there. Man has a "bent" in his nature, a proclivity to want to do evil/sin. They were re-awakened
to the Biblical truth of original sin.
Who did what and where now?
Again, WTF is this New Orthodoxy? The Catholic church that fundies are desparately trying to divorce themselves from ever since they embraced evolution?
I love the convuloted thought processes that lie behind distinguishing one Christian interpretation from another: you all believe in the same messiah, you are all the same religion: Christianity. If you divorce yourself from the "orthodoxy" you divorce yourself from the history of your own faith. In your eyes, did Christinity simply stop during the Dark Ages?
If anything, WW2 was responsible for a whole scale departure from faith when it was seen by many just how useless faith is at providing assistance to the problems of the real world.

The Doctrine of Original Sin says: Because of Adam/Eve sin, we are born separated from God with a sinning nature. We are not sinners because we commit sins, rather, we commit sin because we are sinners.
Man is no more inherently "evil" (a ridiculously sibjective concept) than any other lifeform. If we were so evil, as you propose we would have wiped ourselves out a long time ago. The same evolutionarily derived morality that prevents other animals from wiping out their own species and their own young, has given us adequate means of developing a morality so that we prevail.
Religion, in particular Christianity, has proved itself to be a dreadful source of determining right from wrong.

Yet, most importantly, the truth of what God said about the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is apparent: There is NO POWER in the knowledge of good and evil to CHOOSE the good over the evil APART from God.
I urge you to understand the above statement.
I can't. It's worded really badly.

The most educated nation on Earth, Nazi Germany demonstrates this truth/fact.
How do you figure that Germany was the most educated country in the world in the 1930's. Do you have literacy figures to back this up? You may be right: I am just curious because Germany was suffering big time from the depression and had significant unemployment in the early thirties.

Knowledge and education is not the cure for sin.
It's a dam good start towards overcoming superstition, blind adherence to totalitarian nutters, and to disposing of religious intolerance.
You've seen the statistics about how many people in the US prison system are Christians.
How many highly educated people are presently partaking in wars in the world now?
What are the figures for the correlation between literacy rates and political turmoil in the world at the moment?? I think you'll find those figures rebut your proposition.

Every American and European university professor who provides the justification and rationale and excuses for the murdercide of defenseless Israeli civilians are adopting the mantle of the Nazi's, using their ultra educational status/credentials as a tool to sin/murder Jews. They are the New Neo-Nazi's.
I am always appalled when Christians drop these bombshell generalisations.
How thoroughly have you researched the history of the middle eastern conflict? I think you'll find that there are very much two sides to the story.
Knowledge and education is most definitely the cure for most of your posts on this forum.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 04-26-2004 11:46 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 04-27-2004 4:26 PM Gilgamesh has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 5 of 159 (103061)
04-27-2004 11:29 AM


First, I would say that it was not the Educated German that committed the holocaust but the Christian Religious German.
For example, Dr. Walter Grou in a 1934 speach said...
quote:
This is our answer: "My friend, you are wrong. It is true that we are subject to a higher power. We humans may never interfere with the great laws of the Creator. But you are wrong. See the laws the Creator has established for his world and your life. The great law is that life must be able to preserve itself, and that if it cannot, it will collapse. It is the hard, brutal law of the struggle for existence and of selection and extinction. It was the law we saw day by day, hour by hour, under all the clouds of heaven and all the stars of the sky, in which life seemed to find a senseless death, whether plant or animal or person, whether in distant Africa or near us.
That which cannot meet the challenges of life dies, no matter how much pain it causes,
and even if your small understanding or mind cannot comprehend it, these are the great laws of life and of the world that God himself gave us. These are laws, my German friend, that in our crazy fantasies we broke in the past." Dr. Walter Grou October 1934
and Hitler...
quote:
It would have been more to the point, more honest and more Christian, in past decades not to support those who intentionally destroyed healthy life than to rebel against those who have no other wish than to avoid disease. Moreover, a policy of laissez faire in this sphere is not only cruelty to the individual guiltless victims but also to the nation as a whole.... If the Churches were to declare themselves ready to take over the treatment and care of those suffering from hereditary diseases, we should be quite ready to refrain from sterilizing them.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech on 30 Jan. 1934
and in Mein Kamph Hitler wrote...
quote:
I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work."

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 04-27-2004 12:10 PM jar has replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3069 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 6 of 159 (103069)
04-27-2004 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by jar
04-27-2004 11:29 AM


Invoke the Creator/God and blame christianity for the Holocaust.
This is an old racist/hate argument intended to ignore everything but placing one religion against the other.
Note that this post completely disregards the conclusion which is the subject.
Anyone who says Hitler was christian, or any Nazi reveals their gutter racism/anti-christian bias.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by jar, posted 04-27-2004 11:29 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 04-27-2004 12:18 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied
 Message 8 by zephyr, posted 04-27-2004 12:30 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 7 of 159 (103071)
04-27-2004 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Cold Foreign Object
04-27-2004 12:10 PM


I didn't say Hitler was a Christian, Hitler said Hitler was a Christian and he, and all of his cronies said that they were doing God's work.
I do not blame Christianity for the Holocaust, I blame a mad man. But there is no validity in saying that the Holocaust is the product of education, evolutionists, Christianity or any other such beliefs. It was the product of madmen.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 04-27-2004 12:10 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 04-27-2004 4:11 PM jar has replied

  
zephyr
Member (Idle past 4572 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 8 of 159 (103075)
04-27-2004 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Cold Foreign Object
04-27-2004 12:10 PM


Willowtree,
Please, develop some maturity and stop hoping that crying "racism" and "hate" will shut people up. Political correctness is an incredibly un-Christian value, and will not distract a focused and informed debater from a legitimate point.
With regard to your most recent claim: it would be more appropriate to say that your conclusion disregards the information provided in the post to which you have replied. You have, without substantiation, argued that education is the reason for Nazism and that anyone who attempts to educate themselves and maintain a balanced perspective on one particular issue (Israel/Palestine) is in effect a Nazi. Pardon my saying so, but you don't have a leg to stand on. You can't simply handwave the words of Hitler himself with emotional rhetoric while foot-stomping your original (refuted) generalization.
Germany between the wars was a depressed and impoverished nation full of desperate people who were vulnerable to an ideology that promised to help them regain their pride and prosperity, in part by giving them a scapegoat for their woes. The masses were not led by factual learning to make an informed decision that the Jews should be eliminated. While the education of the Nazi leaders quite possibly informed the shrewd, calculated, and horrid political ploys that resulted in the Holocaust, their possession of factual knowledge about the world in no way made them into the killers that they were.
Anyone who says Hitler (or other Nazis) were Christians is simply taking their word for it. Bias never comes into play until a devout believer puts his hands over his ears and screams "WERE NOT!" If you think you can demonstrate that all their rhetoric about the will of the Creator was lies and propaganda, please, by all means, feel free to do so. I might not even be surprised. However, in my conviction to hold an unbiased attitude toward Christianity, I make no such assumption without information to support it. The bias which you so lowly claim is all on your side of the debate, my friend.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 04-27-2004 12:10 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 04-27-2004 4:55 PM zephyr has replied
 Message 31 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 04-27-2004 11:03 PM zephyr has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 159 (103079)
04-27-2004 12:47 PM


Personally, I've always felt it was biology textbooks that caused the massive World War I reperations that Germany had to pay, bringing about an economic depression, and with it the enviroment needed for a nationalist, fascist, militaristic party to seize power, promising to restore a once-proud people to their former glory by appealing to their bigotry to give them a sense of superiority over others.
And that's just World War II. Don't even start me on how quadratic equations killed Archduke Franz Ferdinand, or how criticisms of Hamlet fired on Fort Sumter.
Book learnin'... bah. Leads to nothin' but trouble.

"As the days go by, we face the increasing inevitability that we are alone in a godless, uninhabited, hostile and meaningless universe. Still, you've got to laugh, haven't you?"
-Holly

  
Verzem
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 159 (103085)
04-27-2004 1:24 PM


Yes Dan,
For WT, it all goes back to that old Original Sin story where eating some kind of fruit and acquiring knowledge was the sin.
Verzem

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 159 (103115)
04-27-2004 3:05 PM


When I posted earlier in this thread, I did so after having read appeals to stop piling on the creos for fear of running them off. I tried to word my response as mildly as possible, but having read back over this today I am almost embarrassed that I didn't make my point more forcefully. Gilgamesh's post is more like mine would have been had I not been trying to go easy on WT.
This topic's first post seems to be an attack on knowledge. I wonder what WT would have schools do in the stead of imparting knowledge. Should we simply send our kids to day-long prayer sessions and bible studies? Would that make the world a better place? More to the point, would that have prevented the world wars?
As I said before, I think the Palestinian-Israeli conflict is much too complicated to be dealt with as a side issue. The bold portion of WT's original post in this thread should either be struck entirely or moved to a new topic.

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 04-27-2004 4:53 PM berberry has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5930 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 12 of 159 (103120)
04-27-2004 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object
04-26-2004 11:46 PM


Willowtree
In response to your statement.
When is the morality of the highly educated going to reach the Jews and condemn their murders by Palestinian suicide cowards ?
What makes you think that either the Palestinians blowing themselves up with bombs or Israelies firing rockets into villages from helicopters is an act of courage? It is War my man and it has never made sense by any means.While we are at it let us realize that wars are about possesion of resources not about Ideologies. Peace is never brokered with weapons.
You live in a nation that is at present finding out the great difference between Ideals and realities.Your nation is also the greatest consumer of resources and if you think for one minute that your{or mine for that matter} quality of life was not purchased with others misery then you are blind to the world around you.

"We cannot define anything precisely! If we attempt to, we get into that paralysis of thought that comes to philosophers, who sit opposite each other, one saying to the other, 'You don't know what you are talking about!' The second one says 'What do you mean by know? What do you mean by talking? What do you mean by you?', and so on."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 04-26-2004 11:46 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3069 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 13 of 159 (103124)
04-27-2004 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
04-27-2004 12:18 PM


Hitler said no such thing - you did.
Hitler was an occultist obsessed with owning the Spear of Destiny because of its perceived history of the owner controlling the world.
Nazi's had zero allegiance to any deity except to rationalize their evil with deist halos.
Nazi's were not madmen. They were perfectly sane and extremely educated and innovative. To say they were "madmen" leaves the impression that they are somehow not responsible for their actions due to insanity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 04-27-2004 12:18 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by jar, posted 04-27-2004 4:24 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 14 of 159 (103129)
04-27-2004 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Cold Foreign Object
04-27-2004 4:11 PM


WT
Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf
quote:
I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work."
I did not write that.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 04-27-2004 4:11 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 04-27-2004 10:02 PM jar has replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3069 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 15 of 159 (103130)
04-27-2004 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Gilgamesh
04-27-2004 4:26 AM


Gilgamesh quote:
_____________________________________________________________________
Oh dear God, where do you get this stuff??
Sure Nazi Germany had some of the leading scientist minds in the world, but what makes you think that these individuals were responsible for the political decisions made by the government?
I think you'll find that most of the people who commited the atrocities on the ground weren't necessarily what you'd call the educated elite: they were a minority of thugs caught up in the political wing of the German military amchine.
Most of the educated German high class served as officers in the Wermacht. I don't believe that you can sustain the charge that most of the professional German officers soldiers were involved in commiting atrocities.
_____________________________________________________________________
The cut and pasted excerpt above is whats called a classic Nuremburg argument.
It didn't work then and I won't let it work now. Feigning ignorance and or hiding behind the excuse of following orders is a premeditated lie.
Gilgamesh quote:
_____________________________________________________________________
Again, WTF is this New Orthodoxy?
_____________________________________________________________________
New Othodoxy is the term used to describe theologians like Paul Tillich, Karl Barth, and of course Reinhold Neibuhr. After WW 2 they returned to the orthodox position of Original Sin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Gilgamesh, posted 04-27-2004 4:26 AM Gilgamesh has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by coffee_addict, posted 04-27-2004 4:32 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
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