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Author Topic:   The New Neo-Nazi's
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 121 of 159 (104764)
05-02-2004 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Cold Foreign Object
05-02-2004 7:24 PM


Is killing with high tech devices somehow more moral than killing with low tech devices?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-02-2004 7:24 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 122 of 159 (104923)
05-03-2004 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by Cold Foreign Object
04-30-2004 3:09 PM


quote:
Create a post that lists your main points and I will answer ?
For the sake of civility, fine. Let's do this very simply.
You have claimed that there is a parallel between various, as-yet unnamed college professors, and the Nazi party. I would like you to defend this statement with specific examples.
This would require you to tell us who these professors are, and specifically what they have done that merits such a comparison.
The only example you have raised so far is that they have decried the actions of the Israeli government. This example is not valid, because:
1) "The Israeli Government" and "Jews" are not interchangable terms, any more than "apple" and "fruit" are interchangable terms.
2) You have not as yet shown that their statements are due to racial prejudice, rather than a justifiable grievance with the actions of the Israeli government. Refute their logic, and show that racial prejudice is the motivating factor behind their statements.
3) Explain how excusing a murder is the same as committing it yourself. The Nazis personally executed millions of Jews. To my knowledge, only a handful of college professors (at most) have actually slaughtered people in their millions. And that was an accident that took place in an Isaac Asimov story.
After that, I would appreciate it if you would tell us what your point is. That there are bad, bad college professors? Hell, I could have told you that. The photography teacher at Skidmore college is an utter dick. I'm pretty sure I called him a "total Nazi" a couple times, but in fairness I was exaggerating. (I was trying to chat up this activist chick, and I'm pretty sure I was high.)
So?

"As the days go by, we face the increasing inevitability that we are alone in a godless, uninhabited, hostile and meaningless universe. Still, you've got to laugh, haven't you?"
-Holly

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 04-30-2004 3:09 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-05-2004 7:00 PM Dan Carroll has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 123 of 159 (104996)
05-03-2004 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object
04-26-2004 11:46 PM


willowtree writes:
Prior to World War 2 New Orthodox theologians and their philosophical friends in the secular world believed that sin was ignorance and education was the cure.
Please be so kind as to reference these New Orthodox theologians so that I may query this statement.
willowtree writes:
it is a fact that the intelligence of these men was used to perfect sin via the atrocities committed against the Jewish race.
How is sin perfected?
willowtree writes:
What it says is that you can know right and wrong/good and evil BUT man will still choose the evil and not the good because he is separated from God.
If God is omnipotent how can one be separated from him? This is a contradiction.
willowtree writes:
Every American and European university professor who provides the justification and rationale and excuses for the murdercide of defenseless Israeli civilians are adopting the mantle of the Nazi's,
I would go you one futher and state that anyone (regardless of education) who justifys or rationalizes genocide of any group of people for any reason are acting like the Nazi Party did during the holocaust. Why single out just professors in your statement? This is a no brainer. *edit typos.
[This message has been edited 1.61803, 05-03-2004]

"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 04-26-2004 11:46 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-03-2004 5:35 PM 1.61803 has replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 124 of 159 (105024)
05-03-2004 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by 1.61803
05-03-2004 4:34 PM


1.61803 quote:
______________________________________________________________________
Please be so kind as to reference these New Orthodox theologians so that I may query this statement.
______________________________________________________________________
I already have in a previous post: Paul Tillich, Karl Barth, Reinhold Niebuhr.
1.61803 quote:
______________________________________________________________________
How is sin perfected?
______________________________________________________________________
In the case of the Nazis, they used their intelligence to murder/sin more efficently/productively/diabolically/etc.etc.
1.61803 excerpt:
______________________________________________________________________
willowtree writes:
What it says is that you can know right and wrong/good and evil BUT man will still choose the evil and not the good because he is separated from God. END WILLOWTREE QUOTE.
If God is omnipotent how can one be separated from him? This is a contradiction.
______________________________________________________________________
You are confusing "all powerfulness", an attribute of God, to dismiss what happened in the Garden of Eden.
One is separated by sinful nature, we are born separated from God BECAUSE of Adam/Eve's sin/fall. This is why God did not want Adam/Eve to have the Knowledge of Good and Evil. I took this truth and evidenced it by pointing to the Nazis who were very educated/possessed
knowledge of good/evil/right/wrong. In spite of their knowledge they did evil because the "knowledge" has no power/ability to make one choose/embrace the good when separated from God. Which proves God right, that knowledge of good and evil is not the cure for sin.
I also evidenced this by showing certain theologians thought education was the cure for sin UNTIL they witnessed what educated men (Nazis) did. (Holocaust) These same theologians changed their beliefs and recognized the Doctrine of Original Sin: Man is born separated fron God with a bent in nature, a bent to do sin/evil despite educational level.
1.61803 quote:
______________________________________________________________________
I would go you one futher and state that anyone (regardless of education) who justifys or rationalizes genocide of any group of people for any reason are acting like the Nazi Party did during the holocaust. Why single out just professors in your statement? This is a no brainer.
______________________________________________________________________
Because the university professors are:
1) Highly educated just like the Nazis.
2) Justify the murder of Jews just like Nazis.
3) In no way see themselves like Nazis but they are.
4) In no way see themselves as uncivilized like uneducated persons (skinheads) but they are just like skinheads/Nazis.
5) Because society holds them in high regard unlike Nazis and skinheads.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by 1.61803, posted 05-03-2004 4:34 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by jar, posted 05-03-2004 5:38 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied
 Message 128 by 1.61803, posted 05-04-2004 1:38 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 125 of 159 (105026)
05-03-2004 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Cold Foreign Object
05-03-2004 5:35 PM


WT
You have still not answered the question I asked in message 121.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-03-2004 5:35 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-05-2004 7:01 PM jar has replied

  
Trixie
Member (Idle past 3705 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 126 of 159 (105030)
05-03-2004 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Cold Foreign Object
04-29-2004 9:54 PM


Tenuous links?
Willowtree, you seem to be arguing that some highly educated people have criticised Israel and so that makes them Nazis because Nazis were highly educated and didn't like Jews. I'm sorry, but the same can be said for Communists, Christians, atheists. Does that mean that the highly educated college professors who criticised Israel can be called Nazi Communist Christian atheists?
I'm sure that we could find some totally uneducated people of middle-eastern origin who criticise Israel. Does that mean that the highly educated college professors are also uneducated people of middle-eastern origin? Do you see what I'm saying? You're falling into the trap of "All Alsatians are dogs therefore all dogs are Alsatians". I think I know what you're trying to say, but you could be a bit clearer?
Thank you for not accusing me of deliberate misrepresentation, but why the need to point out that you weren't doing that? Hmmmm!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 04-29-2004 9:54 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-05-2004 7:10 PM Trixie has not replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 127 of 159 (105199)
05-04-2004 11:01 AM


Willowtree:
Post 122 was written at your request. Do you plan on addressing it?

"As the days go by, we face the increasing inevitability that we are alone in a godless, uninhabited, hostile and meaningless universe. Still, you've got to laugh, haven't you?"
-Holly

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 128 of 159 (105240)
05-04-2004 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Cold Foreign Object
05-03-2004 5:35 PM


The Killing fields in Cambodia and the Genocide that has recently occured in Africa where commited by those not immersed in accademia.. So Perfecting sin/murder need not have the educated as leaders to commit these atrocities.
Your point stating that education is not a cure for sin is obvious..I do not see how this is relevant to the Natzi Party of the holocaust. My above statement is an example of the non educated commited genocide as well.
Just because some one is educated does not make them automatically moral. And anyone who thinks so is a fool.
As far as stating that man is separated from God by sin and that man is unable to make the correct choice between good and evil apart from God is dogmatic. Many Atheist make moral and good/just choices without any belief in God. How do you explain this? Furthermore omnipotant also means prevading all existance so I still contend that if something is "separate" from God then there is a contradicton in God's omnipotance.
Lastly as Trixie has hit on in her post Calling Professors Natzi because they are educated like the Natzi's is such a sweeping broad characterization. Justifying the killing of Jews is Antisemitic not Natzism. Education is not a cure for sin..duh. Education is the cure for ignorance not stupidity. Lets keep the dogma out of education shall we. edit typo
[This message has been edited 1.61803, 05-04-2004]

"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-03-2004 5:35 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 129 of 159 (105676)
05-05-2004 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Dan Carroll
05-03-2004 10:52 AM


Dan Carroll quote:
______________________________________________________________________
You have claimed that there is a parallel between various, as-yet unnamed college professors, and the Nazi party. I would like you to defend this statement with specific examples.
______________________________________________________________________
What I said/claimed was that ANY university professor who justifies cold blooded murder/suicide bombings is no diiferent from the Nazis who also justified the murder of Jews.
I have already posted numerous links evidencing this.
I never calimed that the university professors who justify suicide bombings belong to the Nazi party.
I linked them because they both are highly educated and they both justify the murder of Jews.
Dan Carroll quote:
______________________________________________________________________
This would require you to tell us who these professors are, and specifically what they have done that merits such a comparison.
______________________________________________________________________
Then you are claiming that you are unaware of any university professors who justify suicide bombings. This makes you out of touch with recent current events - ignorant. The links already provided contain the facts that these evil rationalizations are being offered.
What merits the comparison ?
The fact that these super intelligent and educated persons who view themselves as civilized are in reality doing the same thing as Nazis - justifying the murder of Jews. Which makes them skinheads dressed in suits and education. What don't you understand Dan ? (I didn't say agree)
Dan Carroll quote:
______________________________________________________________________
1) "The Israeli Government" and "Jews" are not interchangable terms, any more than "apple" and "fruit" are interchangable terms.
______________________________________________________________________
If you want to stipulate that for this debate then fine.
But, like it or not the Israeli governmemnt speaks for all its citizens regardless of dissent.
Dan Carroll quote:
______________________________________________________________________
2) You have not as yet shown that their statements are due to racial prejudice, rather than a justifiable grievance with the actions of the Israeli government. Refute their logic, and show that racial prejudice is the motivating factor behind their statements.
______________________________________________________________________
It is evidence of racial prejudice. When suicide bombings are justified it is evidence of racial prejudice.
How is the justification and whitewashing of suicide bombings justifiable grievance against the actions of the Israeli government ?
You can demonize the Israeli governmemt and its policies - fine.
What you are really driving at is that suicide/murder bombings are justified because of the policies of the Israeli government. Those policies are RESPONSES to protect Jews from an implacable enemy who haven't even clearly admitted that Israel has a right to exist.
Dan Carroll quote:
______________________________________________________________________
3) Explain how excusing a murder is the same as committing it yourself.
______________________________________________________________________
Obviously it is not, but I never said it was. I pointed out that highly educated persons (two groups) have/were justifying the murder of Jews.
My point is:
University professors who whitewash the murder of Jews are no different than skinheads and Nazis, and of course they themselves would never entertain the notion that they are in fact no different from a Nazi or skinhead.
So much for education being the delivering vehicle from the behavior of Nazis and skinheads.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Dan Carroll, posted 05-03-2004 10:52 AM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Cynic1, posted 05-06-2004 5:05 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied
 Message 135 by Dan Carroll, posted 05-06-2004 10:29 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 130 of 159 (105677)
05-05-2004 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by jar
05-03-2004 5:38 PM


Depends on who is being killed and why.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by jar, posted 05-03-2004 5:38 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by jar, posted 05-05-2004 7:09 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 131 of 159 (105681)
05-05-2004 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Cold Foreign Object
05-05-2004 7:01 PM


So you feel it is moral for Israel to use Hi Tech Devices to kill Palestinians?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-05-2004 7:01 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-06-2004 4:36 PM jar has replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 132 of 159 (105682)
05-05-2004 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Trixie
05-03-2004 5:54 PM


Trixie quote:
______________________________________________________________________
Willowtree, you seem to be arguing that some highly educated people have criticised Israel
______________________________________________________________________
No.
I have argued that some highly educated people have justified cold blooded murder - the suicide bombings. Yes they criticize Israel, like a lot of other peolple do. You are fuzzy and inexact regarding the focus of my laser beam.
I never said a part of anything makes the whole the same as the part.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Trixie, posted 05-03-2004 5:54 PM Trixie has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Rand Al'Thor, posted 05-06-2004 5:32 AM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
Cynic1
Member (Idle past 6074 days)
Posts: 78
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 133 of 159 (105825)
05-06-2004 5:05 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Cold Foreign Object
05-05-2004 7:00 PM


I'm nor sure if you read it yet, but I think there has been at least one post that explains that neo-Nazis/skinheads and the old Nazis were not just justifying the killing of Jews, they were actually killing Jews. The actually killing Jews part is what made them monsters instead of just being jerks.
This is how the highly educated people you mentioned and the Nazis are too different for a relevant analogy. Glad I could clear this up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-05-2004 7:00 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-06-2004 4:40 PM Cynic1 has replied

  
Rand Al'Thor
Inactive Member


Message 134 of 159 (105827)
05-06-2004 5:32 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by Cold Foreign Object
05-05-2004 7:10 PM


I have argued that some highly educated people have justified cold blooded murder - the suicide bombings.
Ok, and some Christians think that Muslims are the people of Satan and should be slaughtered. I don't get what your "Nazi professors" have to do with anything. In both cases these people are a minority. If you are trying to prove that education has nothing to do with morality I would agree with you, a very smart person can do horrible things as easily as a idiot. Of course I don't think that religion has much to do with morality either.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-05-2004 7:10 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 135 of 159 (105888)
05-06-2004 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Cold Foreign Object
05-05-2004 7:00 PM


quote:
What I said/claimed was that ANY university professor who justifies cold blooded murder/suicide bombings is no diiferent from the Nazis who also justified the murder of Jews.
If all you want to do is give a vague, h ANY-university-professor-who-might-happen-to-do-this, then your point is nothing more than mental masturbation. If that's the case, let me know... you should have your privacy for that.
quote:
I have already posted numerous links evidencing this.
No you haven't, for reasons you have chosen to ignore. Several times.
quote:
Then you are claiming that you are unaware of any university professors who justify suicide bombings. This makes you out of touch with recent current events - ignorant. The links already provided contain the facts that these evil rationalizations are being offered.
I have claimed no such thing. I asked you to provide specific examples, so we could discuss the exact nature of these events, and analyze your Nazi comparison accordingly.
I've been asking you for nine pages. You have as yet failed to do so. Are we going to need those handpuppets after all?
quote:
The fact that these super intelligent and educated persons who view themselves as civilized are in reality doing the same thing as Nazis - justifying the murder of Jews.
Provide an example of this, or stop arguing in bad faith. All you have provided so far are links to people discussing professors who decry Israel.
quote:
But, like it or not the Israeli governmemnt speaks for all its citizens regardless of dissent.
Willowtree, it's time for a bombshell.
THE CITIZENS OF ISRAEL DO NOT REPRESENT JEWS EVERYWHERE. Believe it or not, there are Jews all over the planet, the majority of which have never set foot in Israel.
Once again, in big type now, because you seem to have trouble reading this one.
"JEW" IS NOT THE SAME TERM AS "ISRAELI". "JEWS" IS NOT THE SAME TERM AS "ISRAELI GOVERMNENT" OR "THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL". THE ISRAELI GOVERMNET CAN REPRESENT THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL ALL IT WANTS, AND SITLL NOT REPRESENT JEWS. IF YOU OFFER AN EXAMPLE OF SOMEONE DECRYING ISRAEL, THAT IS THE START AND END OF WHAT YOU ARE OFFERING... SOMEONE WHO IS AGAINST ISRAEL.
Is that simple enough? Do we need the handpuppets? I can dress them up with little yarmulkes if you want.
quote:
It is evidence of racial prejudice. When suicide bombings are justified it is evidence of racial prejudice.
You saying this does not make it so. Bring up an example and show how.
quote:
How is the justification and whitewashing of suicide bombings justifiable grievance against the actions of the Israeli government ?
Gee, Willowtree, I couldn't tell you. Y'see, the person arguing that it is has utterly failed, despite the vast reserves of patience offered him, to provide even a single concrete example. It's very, very difficult to discuss specific actions if the only thing being offered is vague accusation.
quote:
Obviously it is not, but I never said it was. I pointed out that highly educated persons (two groups) have/were justifying the murder of Jews.
Then it is not a valid comparison. Try comparing these hypothetical professors to the Catholic Church, who justified the holocaust, rather than the Nazis, who perpetrated it themselves.

"As the days go by, we face the increasing inevitability that we are alone in a godless, uninhabited, hostile and meaningless universe. Still, you've got to laugh, haven't you?"
-Holly

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-05-2004 7:00 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-06-2004 4:21 PM Dan Carroll has replied

  
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