Girl Troubles...I need to get this off my chest!

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Originally posted by Dan Carroll:
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< !--UE-->But I ended up lying to Shazia< !--UB

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Boom. There you go.

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Bah. I've had a lot of experience with women in my family, and a few female friends in uni, in work, outside of work, etc. And one theme which holds true, whether talking about me or guys they know: they see a single guy who never dates as a 'weirdo'. Why has he never had a girlfriend? He must have something wrong with him. And excuses like 'I have not found the right woman as yet' just don't cut it.I didn't blatantly fill her head with amazing occurrences usually deemed marvellous, or owt, I merely used some of what she said as a springboard for mentioning 'exes', similar to what she did in conversation with me - though I suspect she really HAS gone out with those chaps she mentioned.

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Most guys I've seen who strike out with women, it's because they're treating women like an alien species that has to be conquered with trickery. What's the right pick-up line? What kind of car should I drive? Think she'll like this shirt? What's the magic password that lets other guys score? How can I fool women into thinking I'm someone they'll like?

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But those other guys DO... yeah - I know. I think growing up at an all-boys school has made women seem alien to me. I just can't seem to make them see me in a sexual 'man' kind of a sense. They almost automatically treat me like a woman. And I've very little idea (though a bit) about how to change that - short of hitting on women in bars. Too scary! AAAARGH!I drove past one today on my way home from another town at midnight, and thought I could go in and practise getting shot down. But I just went straight home.Cheers for your help, mate., 10-18-2003

crashfrog, you make a lot of sense in your post, so I really really want to thank you for your time & effort. I welcome advice! I want to go over a few specifics in your post, however:

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Originally posted by crashfrog:
If you want her to know that you like her you have to tell her. It can be as simple as "Hey, I really like you. I'd like to spend more time getting to know you." What I had to get over, myself, was this playground idea that liking a girl was something that had to be hidden at all cost, and communicated only by subterfuge. Nothing could be farther from the truth (at least now that we're old enough to mate. ) You have to tell girls that you like them.

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I know it sounds scary, and it is.

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Too fucking right. It feels heartburstingly scary. I would have expected this sort of feeling if I wanted to tell a woman I love her, but when you like someone it gets as intense as this??? Good God...

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Women might say "I think we should go to the zoo" or "If it's not too much trouble, could you hand me a beer?" whereas men tend to say "Let's go to the zoo" or "hand me a beer." Much more direct.

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That's what you're going to be. Direct. When you're direct it looks like confidence, even if you don't have any.

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So you mean I should act more ... Pakistani? Over here in England, I grew up learning my 'please's & 'thank you's. When a servant at a relative's house in Pakistan gave me some food, I thanked him...only to receive a look of pure disgust, as though doing something like that should have remained beneath me. My cousins also told me I shouldn't ask waiters things like: 'Can I have some pomegranate juice?', I should demand it: 'GIVE ME POMEGRANATE JUICE!'. Gah.

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Call her up the minute you know she's back in town. Tell her that you called her the minute you knew she was back in town.

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This one gets to me. She will return about midday Sunday. So in my time that would make it about 12 hours from now. Should I actually do this? When I dropped her off at home I asked her when she would return. She told me, then added: 'Well, I have your number...' as though she wants to call the shots sort of thing. Don't call us we'll call you sort of thing. Act like a man, Kash - direct! Crank up your self-belief! Sorry, just trying to psyche myself up.Everything feels so hard. I had always imagined love, etc. etc. as a splendrous, easy process. Even though anything along those lines in my life has always involved raging torrents of emotion which to angels look like torment & insanity.

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(All these things you keep telling us about how you feel about her? You should be telling these things to her.)

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*Rrhain's infamous surprised blink* What did you just say??? But ... whoa. I mean that in a hardcore Keanu Reeves in The Matrix style. WHOA. Now THAT feels waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too scary. I do NOT want to freak her out.

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If she says "Sorry, I'm just not interested in you that way", well, you're done.

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I would have to leave her forever in that case. How could I explain my feelings in a situation like that? It seems extreme, but too many times I've fallen prey to that horrendous Woman Routine (whether they mean to or not) of 'Good Friend Bad Boyfriend'. I give & I give, they get all the most important aspects of a relationship (the trust, emotions, joy, empathy, my heart, my companionship) from me, but give their body and physical love to some schmuck they complain to me about.Honesty, respect, communication, support from me, yet my lips, my kisses, my penis - not good enough for them. They give themselves away to a person who, in a relationship respect, seems to me like a lesser man. But more man than me. Lots of girls like to play this game where they have an incredibly wonderful 'guy friend' that would push the corners of the world for them, fulfils all those really important aspects of a relationship for them, yet they then go to someone else for sex. Like a real-life version of Will & Grace, but Will, as a gay man, doesn't have THAT MUCH of a problem with it. I end up 'friended'/'chumped'/'gay manned'/whatever you wanna call it.I don't think I can go through that again. And with someone like Shazia, I would just feel her rejection again everytime she brought up the subject of her new boyfriend, so I wouldn't want things to get that sour. It might sound hideously selfish, but I couldn't imagine staying friends with her if she didn't want me that way. And I don't think I could explain that if she said: 'I just don't dig you that way', translated of course into her particular manner of speaking...But to edit this to end on a 'happy' note, it hasn't happened yet, so I might still have a chance. But I don't want to end up like that guy (Jim Carrey's character?) in Dumb & Dumber, when a hot babe tells him he has a one in a million chance of scoring with her: 'You mean there IS a chance!'Go Kash go! Remember the lesson of the water-mill!------------------

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All the boys think she's a spy

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, 10-18-2003

Why would you bother with women in bars? Are you a bar guy? are your interests bar-centric? I have a hard time believing that's true.You want a girl who shares your interests. Any of them. This is important. As a result you need to look for women where your interests lie. Date co-workers. Date people in your classes. Date people who go to the same interest groups as you. I met my wife at our colleges gaming society over a game of Dungeons and Dragons (2nd Edition.) Of all the places I thought I'd meet the girl of my dreams, I never thought it would be at our gaming society, because it had like 3 female members. If you don't have any interest groups, get into some. I don't know what you're into, but use your interests to meet girls. Take classes. Join a medevial reenactment group. (There's got to be boatloads in the UK.)I'm just saying, the bars are going to be useless to you because you won't be interested in bar girls. You'll be interested in girls that share your interests. The only way to find the ones that do is to go where people who share your interest meet. If you're confident and direct the issue of your prior romantic experience won't come up. If it does, spin it the right way. Tell her you've been waiting for that special girl or something. Make your inexperience seem like a choice, not a circumstance. And it kind of is, really, when you think about it. If you really wanted the experience you could have hired a prostitute or something. But clearly you're holding out for something more meaningful. Feel free to tell her that.

Well, of course there's a fine line between "direct" and "rude". If you're like me (shy) then you ask for things from people like "hi, is it possible I could get some more juice, please?" A more direct - but still polite - way would be "I'd like more juice, please."Similarly "I was wondering if it was maybe possible that we could go out again tomorrow night" is significantly less direct than "I had such a good time the other night (compliments never hurt) that I'd like to take you out again." Still polite, though. Note the use of the active voice, and the lack of qualifiers like "maybe". Remember, you're not asking if you can ask her out (it's too easy for her to say no to that.) You're asking her out. Period.(It's so weird to hear about people who have servants. In the West we all take turns being the servants and being served.) If she wanted to call the shots, she'd be calling them. (Well, she'd be calling you, anyway.) Give her a call. ask her out. Telling her how you feel won't freak her out. It would freak you out if you were in her place, yes, but she's different from you. If she's as pretty as you say it won't be the first time she's heard stuff like that. The worst outcome is that she says something like "well, I can appreciate how you feel, but I don't feel the same." Yeah, that would suck. It feels crappy, I know. But it's survivable, and not really that embarassing. And at least you know where you stand, and you can go obsess about somebody else. And hey, maybe it'll work! Maybe she'll be like "you know, I kind of like you too. Now what?" (We'll burn that bridge when we come to it. ) Yes. This is called "the Friend Zone", and you get trapped in it. It's not generally considered possible to escape, but relax, because it's not something you're doing. If these particular women weren't interested in you as a friend, they wouldn't be interested in you at all.Also it's pretty clear that while you say that the empathy and stuff are "the most important parts of the relationship", you clearly don't think that's the case, or you wouldn't be complaining about the lack of physical access. Don't sweat it, though. You're male, and it's not a bad thing for men to be very, very interested in the physical aspects of relationships. We're less dependant on other people for emotional support. After all you have plenty of friends. You don't have anybody to you know.Yes, the Friend Zone sucks. I've been trapped in it more times than I can remember. Eventually though you find the girl who's intelligent enough to realize that the man she wants should be her friend as well as her lover. well, you don't have to. Consider that it's kind of dishonest to act like a friend when all you want is the panties, anyway. You don't have to be her friend if you don't want to. If she's like "why don't you want to be my friend?" you can just tell her "I don't feel that way about you." (Turnabout is fair play.)it's not selfish. You have friends because you have interpersonal needs. If an interpersonal relationship doesn't meet those needs, then you don't have to stick with it. It's not your job to play nursemaid to people that you don't care to be friends with, and there's no shame in thinking so. Hee hee. It's funny because we're all that guy. I hope this helps. Like I've said there's almost no difference between you and me, except I learned a few things you haven't yet. In fact I think I went out with a girl just like yours, once. (Broke my heart, very painful. But very, very informative.)

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Boom. There you go.

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Most guys I've seen who strike out with women, it's because they're treating women like an alien species that has to be conquered with trickery. What's the right pick-up line? What kind of car should I drive? Think she'll like this shirt? What's the magic password that lets other guys score? How can I fool women into thinking I'm someone they'll like?

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Thank you Dan, that was refreshing to hear a guy say that.Now if you'll excuse me, I have a few men to string along and then dump for pleasure, a dozen obscure hygene devices to use, and some ritual chants to praise Rania, Godess of Mental Anguish, at the Radical Women's Action Center.------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

You make it all seem so easy and ... doable. I think 'easy', by the way, acts as a kind of negative trigger word with her - something I want to avoid using. I've started rambling again.

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If she's as pretty as you say

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God yes... I remember something Bernard Shaw once said:"It is one of the mysterious ways of Allah to make
women troublesome when he makes them beautiful."

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Consider that it's kind of dishonest to act like a friend when all you want is the panties, anyway.

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I actually want more than just that, but ideally that along with everything else...I think I've reached this stage in my life where I... Ahhh, it doesn't matter. Forget it. I don't want to overload you with depressing shite and start quoting William Blake at you. Though I think I did in my last post.Thanks for all your help - you've presented everything to me in such a clear light. It makes it seem so ... free. Cheers! , 10-19-2003

Well, in all honesty, I think it's women's fault that we occasionally think we have to play some kind of game to get some. I think it's the fault of girls maturing 2-3 years early - they have 2-3 years to dream up all the ridiculous relationship rules before guys have any interest in giving input. By the time we're ready to hit the scene there's 3 years of rules and ettiqutte we have to learn.It's like we're Phil Hartman as the Caveman Lawyer: "I'm just a caveman. Your rules confuse and frighten me."

Good. GOOD! It is easy. It's as easy as doing and being. If I've impressed upon you nothing but that, I've done well. Now, it's not guaranteed to work, but you'll be true to yourself, and there's nothing manlier. I guess I don't find Blake depressing. I don't much like him, but his poems don't depress me. Mostly it seems to be psycho-sexual religious obsession. Honestly I don't care much for his whole innocence-experience-innocence-again model. Hand me Dickinson's "My Life Had Stood, A Loaded Gun" any day. Yes, YES! You are free. That's what it took me so long to find out. There aren't rules you have to follow. There isn't a secret code. If you want to know the truth, there isn't even a Relationship. There's just you and her and how you feel about each other. Remember this and you will go far. I call it the Zen Theory of Relationships. Don't worry about the Relationship (if you get that far with her.) Just worry about her.Ok, enough advice. I sense that you are ready, grasshopper. Go out and make us proud. (If it helps any you've caught onto this way faster than any of the other guys I've tried to tell this to.)

ARSE! She has her phone switched off. 'The Vodafone you are calling is currently switched off'.When we met on Thursday (always a Thursday in my life!), it did seem like she had a lot of trouble with her phone. Despite charging it, it kept going off, etc. In fact, when I first called her I thought I'd freaked her out and she'd hung up on me. I went home in a gloom, then called her again. We met for coffee. Her phone kept dying.I think she might either have not charged it, or she has ended up staying there longer and has withdrawn herself away from everyone else . Anyhoo, I sent a txt after posting this morning, and I said: 'Hiya! How you doin' then? When do you get into Hudds?' I received a 'message pending' report but not a 'message delivered' one. So it doesn't surprise me that she didn't answer when I called.I keep...I keep getting all these pictures in my head of how things might go. They come unbidden to my mind. Then something happens that flummoxes me completely. Obviously now I wait until she switches her phone on again, yeah? God, all that pent-up energy... I feel like I have to run around vaulting over handrails and performing PK rolls to work off my tense nervous ... zing, whatever.Blake doesn't depress me either, but I read some of him at a young age. I went through a period of real inner turmoil, and read The Marriage Of Heaven & Hell at a very impressionable age. Roundabout when I discovered William Burroughs, another bastard who fucked up my perceptions of reality. Some of his words just make loads of sense: 'Excess of sorrow laughs, excess of joy weeps'. You know how people cry when they get really happy? That makes sense. But lately I've found myself so brimming inside that I start cackling maniacally. I recall a dear friend of mine playing me Johnny Cash's version of 'Hurt' and I creased myself laughing. And not because it amused me or anything...Incidentally, why you up at 5 in the morning, message board time?, 10-19-2003

It's how a man drives whatever car he's in that I noticed.Is he skillful and coordinated bhind the wheel? Do I feel safe with him driving?I also notice how he keeps his car; is there crap all over the inside?I have always been rather wary and mistrustful of men with sportscars.I always figure they have to be insecure about something, or they are trying to show off and impress people.Sorry, Percy.

Agent, there is a book that would help you a lot, I think. I know it helped me and many people I know understand the opposite sex much better."You Just Don't Understand" by Deborah Tannen

Thanks for that recommendation. I'll have to look into it.Goddammit. Sorry, I don't mean to offend anyone who might see that phrase as blasphemy or something. I sent Shazia a txt asking when she would return. Duh! I mentioned this to you lot before. Stupid me... Anyhoo, at about 1700 I received a 'message delivered' txt, but placing its time of delivery at 0858!I phoned her but I heard no ring, instead a voice saying: 'The Vodafone you have rung is not responding' or summat ridiculous like that. Can these flashy new T-Mobiles block specific numbers automatically like spam e-mail? My mate Andy assured me mobiles (cell phones) can't.I don't know what to do. I really wanted to talk to her today just to tell her. Do I contact her tomorrow? If she doesn't answer then she'll have received 3 missed calls from me. Won't that make me seem ultra-desperate and needy (he said, hurling barrages of questions at all y'all!)?I mentioned that things keep happening to confound me in this ongoing saga, and this one has certainly stymied me. I can only assume that encounter with her ex has left her...I dunno. Withdrawn? Wanting him? Feeling wary of guys? God god god what the fuck do I do??? Sorry, babbling again.I had actually gone to Andy's house today to piss about and forget my woes. But as soon as I received that delivery report and the unresponsive phone message my heart & stomach just went apeshit. I couldn't sit still, and those 3 cups of coffee I had suddenly made me feel sick. I had to leave because a Monty Python tape he had on at that time (and I love their mad Routines) just irked me all of a sudden.Do I even bother now? I have this voice inside me ('The Voice Of The Devil' ) telling me to carry on, but what? Should I... Fuck, I don't kno-ho-ho. Gaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrhhh!Sorry. I don't know what this sorry-arsed rambling will achieve. I suppose I need to get it out of my system, and Peter Handke's 'Seek to write your way out of everything' applies here. I kept staring at my poor mobile accusingly. I mean, I expected to talk to her, her mobile to cut off, then me to suggest we meet up to talk, but a cold cellular shoulder??? Like when I first called her and her phone cut off, I stared at my mobile and actually uttered out loud: 'Well...THAT didn't go too well...' I just feel like that now, but added zaniness in my brain from playing Rollcage Stage II and all that Monty Python.Why does everything have to feel so hard? My sisters seem to find some way around our cultural barriers and... But as women, they have this societal thing of getting hit on, as opposed to having to do the 'hitting'. ARSE! I don't... Anyway. Sorry, and cheers., 10-19-2003

I know. This is one situation where you don't want to think too far ahead, though. I mean, plan your dates and stuff, so you look prepared for situations, but you must be like a Love Jedi and clear your mind of scenarios. The one thing I can guarantee you is that it won't be anything like what you think, so why bother dwelling on it? I work weird hours. Nights, mostly.

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I don't know what to do. I really wanted to talk to her today just to tell her. Do I contact her tomorrow? If she doesn't answer then she'll have received 3 missed calls from me. Won't that make me seem ultra-desperate and needy (he said, hurling barrages of questions at all y'all!)

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Yes, it will. Calm down, and consciously force yourself to be yourself. Count how often you're making phone calls, and schedule for yourself, in advance, times when you'll call. That'll stop you from calling too often.------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

Thanks, me dears. Too late though. I just called her about 30 mins ago. And her phone rang 7 times before I hung up. Of course, this could mean anything, but I suspect that she wants to avoid me.Why the fuck do women play these games? I've had female friends who have all told me that they've avoided guys at some stage. One girl, believe it or not, took offence at a guy's shoes on their first date and avoided him after that! Instead of just telling him: 'I don't dig you like that' or just telling him the truth about his sodding footwear, she avoided him.Ohhhhh...I think I've really fucked this up somehow. I recall people on another board used to talk about women, etc. and one incredible guy (who calls himself TrueNorwegianBruceWillis and has an almost intuitive understanding of women) said that rejection doesn't define your worth as a person.But I haven't reached that stage in my life where I can believe this with my heart. If only... argh. Manowar, 10-19-2003