On The Matrix

Okay! I finally saw Matrix: Revolutions this weekend! I can start clicking on spoiler threads! Woo!

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The fight of the rebels against the evil oppressors until the saviour can work his magic? Star Wars.

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Star Wars? Foundation. Okay, this isn't really a response to Rrhain's post. I just wanted to get in that snarky comment. Thoughts on the Matrix from Dan follow. (Because he saw it a week late, and missed all the fun internet discussions.)The Matrix doesn't do anything new, sure. If you want, I can start listing all the comic panels from which screenshots were directly lifted. (Neo's big fight with Agent Smith at the end of Revolutions? Imagine Frank Miller did Alan Moore's run on Miracleman.) But it mixes up old ideas and reshuffles them for popular entertainment. Everything from gnostic Christianity (duh), to taoist enlightenment (meditation via computer monitors, allow yourself to be overwhelmed by your shadow self to claim victory), to sixties superhero comics (one big fat Kirby montage at the end of Reloaded), to World War II movies. (Gosh, Sarge! I've just gotta enlist, event though I'm too young! I've just gotta!) Sure, it doesn't go very far into anything... it's superficial imagery being used, no real intense philosophy. But since the goal seems to be a rollicking good kill-the-robots fest, so what?That's my basic policy on the Matrix. Block out the paniful, painful dialogue, and what you get is awesome freakin' kick-punch-boom-boom scenes, with a pretty, pretty Carrie Ann-Moss.Worth my eight bucks any day of the week.

It's classified as sci-fi at the video store, maybe. But it's a fantasy movie. It's just that it has rayguns so it looks like sci-fi. But as the main plot has nothing at all to do with science, it's not science fiction.The Matrix was certainly more original than Star Wars, which just rips off The Hidden Fortress wholesale. I don't know that I'd say either of those movies is better than the other.

Well hell, that's the choice they have in the Matrix. It's pretty obvious once you're out of the Matrix that the resistance is more or less ineffective, at least until Neo comes.But a choice that sends you to the chipper as soon as you make it makes for a pretty boring movie, don't you think? Well, that's what's happening, don't you think? Neo doesn't get out - even though he feels the Matrix is a lie - until he meets up with other people in the resistance. He's got a feeling, I guess. I'd say the W bros are trying to say that transcendence is not a process you start intellectually. Hrm, that could be. Though if the MMORPG is any indication it's just one city and a surrounding area.

Dan Carroll responds to me:

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Star Wars? Foundation.

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Asimov? Who's he? Actually, I've not read much of Asimov in general. What I was thinking of was the channel run...all the rebels fighting and dying against the Empire when the only way it's going to happen is when the chosen one, alone, confronts his enemy and uses his special powers to destroy them. The Zionistas fighting all the sentinels while Neo, alone, confronts his enemy and uses his special powers to destroy him.

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Sure, it doesn't go very far into anything... it's superficial imagery being used, no real intense philosophy. But since the goal seems to be a rollicking good kill-the-robots fest, so what?

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Because the makers of the movie seemed to indicate that it was supposed to be so much more than just a kill-the-robots fest...that it was supposed to be deep and touch on intense philosophy.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

crashfrog writes:

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The Matrix was certainly more original than Star Wars, which just rips off The Hidden Fortress wholesale.

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Originality does not a good movie make.West Side Story is simply Romeo and Juliet, but it's better than any production of R&J that I've ever seen. R&J ends three times...THREE TIMES! We see how R&J die, then Friar Laurence retells the story we just saw, and then Balthasar and the Page do the same thing. How many times do we need to hear monologues about what we just saw?WSS, on the other hand, has the good sense to end when the story ends.

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I don't know that I'd say either of those movies is better than the other.

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I would. With Star Wars, I wasn't left with the same bad taste in my mouth regarding basic premise flaws and lack of full development of premise that I had with The Matrix.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

crashfrog responds to me:

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Not at all. It's how martyrs get made. It isn't a very nice choice, but it's still a choice: Stand up to your principles knowing that you'll probably never get to see them realized or submit to the authority and the lies it espouses.

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Well hell, that's the choice they have in the Matrix. It's pretty obvious once you're out of the Matrix that the resistance is more or less ineffective, at least until Neo comes.

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But a choice that sends you to the chipper as soon as you make it makes for a pretty boring movie, don't you think?

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(*sigh*)Do you take pleasure in chopping my posts to shreds?Let's continue on in my post to see what I was actually saying: In other words, I'm saying that it isn't like they have a little monitor on the pod that glows green if the occupant accepts the matrix and as soon as the occupant disbelieves, turns red and you get flushed. Instead, you have to get noticed by the agents. You might be able to get away with small-scale bits, but if you start to get vulgar with things, then you incur their wrath and will have to run for your life. You won't get flushed until they find you.[Gads...that sounds like something out of Mage: The Ascension]That's why I made the connection to 1984. Winston makes his choice and for a while, he gets to continue to live. But they find out (and there is a signficant hint that they knew all along) and destroy him. And 1984 is hardly a boring story. The perfection of the oppression has been achieved, and yet we still root for Winston and recognize the tragedy of his downfall.

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The problem is finding all those others who have also made the same choice and binding them together so that the machines will not be able to destroy them.

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Well, that's what's happening, don't you think? Neo doesn't get out - even though he feels the Matrix is a lie - until he meets up with other people in the resistance.

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Right, but he only gets out because the others are already out. The others do not need to constantly live within the matrix. They only go into it when they have a reason and quite often have to run like hell to get their way out.It would be a much more difficult thing to do when all the people who are like you are in the same predicament you are.

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One of the questions never answered is how Neo came to know about the matrix in the first place.

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He's got a feeling, I guess.

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But why the "matrix"? Having doubts about the nature of reality is one thing. Calling it "the matrix" is something else.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

You may be correct Huff, the idea for another one is left wide open should some kind of actual brain to comptuer technology be acuatlly used in the making of another one. We dont have such toys yet Canadians were willing to put up $ to write VR to ones retina. I dont believe in this rule based artifical intelligence but my brother does. I suspect the relation of computers to DNA is overhyped by disbelief instead.

Well that hardly sells out movie theatres, don't you think?I don't know that your version would be any better or worse. But it would sell a hell of a lot less tickets. I assume he finds out about it when Trinity is writing on his screen. Prior to that there's no evidence that he knows about the Matrix, only that Morpheus is a significant person.

Honestly I can't begin to make that comparison. Star Wars came out before I was born. I grew up watching it. There's no way for me to tell if it's such a great movie to me on it's own merits, or because it was very formative in my childhood.

crashfrog responds tome:

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The perfection of the oppression has been achieved, and yet we still root for Winston and recognize the tragedy of his downfall.

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Well that hardly sells out movie theatres, don't you think?

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1984 is one of the most popular books in the world. It does quite well. It is directly responsible for quite a number of words and phrases entering the vernacular such as "Big Brother," "doublespeak," and "Orwellian."Don't confuse poor adaptations of the book with the book. Logan's Run is a good book...I still yearn to see a faithful version of it brought to the screen.

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I don't know that your version would be any better or worse. But it would sell a hell of a lot less tickets.

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Why?

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Having doubts about the nature of reality is one thing. Calling it "the matrix" is something else.

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I assume he finds out about it when Trinity is writing on his screen. Prior to that there's no evidence that he knows about the Matrix, only that Morpheus is a significant person.

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If I recall correctly, it is Neo that first mentions it. And even if it is that he knows about Morpheus, that merely pushes the question back one level. Where did he come to know the specific language used?Suppose you had a person who grew up on a desert island, completely isolated from everybody else. One might not be surprised to find that this person developed a language of his own (ignoring the reality that one needs to be taught language and if it isn't taught by a certain age, the person will never master language) but if that language turned out to be identical to English, one would be quite surprised.Neo's questioning of reality is one thing, but how did he manage to land on the right questions?------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

And that has exactly what to do with making a good movie? Because the hero loses at the end, and not in a good way. Few people go to see depressing movies twice. Your recollection differs from mine. I recall that the first time the word "Matrix" happens, it's Trinity writing on Neo's computer screen. "The Matrix has you" she says. When they meet in the club, then, Neo is like "What is the Matrix?" but only because he's just read the word from Trinity. It's in the databases he's searching through. "Morpheus eludes authorities", etc. How does he know to search for Morpheus? It doesn't say. We can only assume he starts the search based on rumors of hackers with unusual abilities, and his search is spurred on by his feelings of ill-adjustment to the real world, and a sense of kinship with these super-hackers, whoever they are. The ones we see him ask are largely fed to him by Trinity. Prior to that, we have no idea. It's pretty obvious to me that he's searching for Morpheus specifically until Trinity tells him that the Matrix has him. Prior to that he's searching for the wrong thing.

crashfrog responds to me:

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1984 is one of the most popular books in the world.

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And that has exactly what to do with making a good movie?

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That the story is good. Any problems with the movie will be with the adaptation of the story, not the story, itself.In other words, the concept that the choice is, essentially, "or death" and, in the case of The Matrix, we are seeing someone finally being able to get another option is a good story.

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Why?

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Because the hero loses at the end, and not in a good way. Few people go to see depressing movies twice.

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So?Leo dies at the end of Titanic, and not in a good way, and it broke records for the repeat viewers.

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If I recall correctly, it is Neo that first mentions it.

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Your recollection differs from mine.

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I gotta start caring about movies enough to buy DVDs....My recollection is that Neo is online and gets a message of "Follow the white rabbit." His buddy shows up and asks him out...he is about to refuse when he notices that one of the entourage has a white rabbit tattoo, so he goes. He then meets Trinity and has the following exchange (thank you, IMDB): Now, even if it is the computer person that first uses the word "matrix" as far as the movie goes, I do recall that it is phrased as if Neo already knows that word. In the exchange in the club, Trinity could just as easily have said, "What is the matrix?" and it still would be indicative that Neo knows the word "matrix" and that it has some significance about the nature of reality.It isn't like Trinity picked Neo at random. Neo had been making his presence known, sticking his nose into things, and he got noticed.

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And even if it is that he knows about Morpheus, that merely pushes the question back one level. Where did he come to know the specific language used?

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It's in the databases he's searching through.

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That merely pushes the question back one level. Why is he searching these databases?

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Neo's questioning of reality is one thing, but how did he manage to land on the right questions?

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The ones we see him ask are largely fed to him by Trinity.

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I don't see that at all. Instead, I see it the other way around: Trinity notices him because he's been asking the right questions. After all, these are the opening lines (again, thank you, IMDB): Neo is being watched because he is asking the right questions, not because he is being led.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

I agree.From what I've seen, it seems Neo felt something was not quite right (which was predicted and expected by the creator of the Matrix) as did most of the people who made it out. They did something to get noticed, like Trinity with the hacking.What I thought was weird in the lines Rrhain posted is when Cypher says:"We're gonna kill him. You understand that? "Who is we?Has anyone else noticed - or is it just me - that the first Matrix has a bit more Buddhist type themes while Reloaded is definitely Christian?

Huh? (You didn't just say that, did you?) He dies in a great way. Heroic sacrifice for love and all that. Hence the repeat viewing. Yes, which I agreed with, remember? He's asking "Who is Morpheus?" not "What is the Matrix?" until Trinity tells him "The Matrix has you." There's no indication that he understands, so there'sno indication he has any idea of what the Matrix is. An intuitive rejection of reality which prompts a search for others who might feel the same way. This could potentially lead to people (as shown in the Animatrix) who were examined as candidates for "The One" but couldn't handle the truth. That, somehow, leads to the mention of Morpheus, who is appears to be magic, constantly evading significant efforts to apprehend him.Ok, it's not automatic. But it's vaguely plausible. It's enough of an explanation for what leads Neo to Morpheus for me, anyway. Yes, but I agreed with this already, remember? Nonetheless he doesn't say "Matrix" until it's been said to him. He doesn't stumble onto the Matrix. He stumbles onto Morpheus. It seems pretty simple to me.

You say that Matrix is similar to Asimov's Foundation? Well, I've only seen the first movie, so I could not offer an expert opinion, but isn't it true that the resistance in the Matrix are fighting so that Neo can save the day, whereas in Foundation Hari Seldon has already done his job and everyone just has to carry out his plan?Why hasn't Foundation been made into a film? Not spectacular enough, perchance?