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Author Topic:   abstinece-only sex education
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1371 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 288 of 306 (362300)
11-06-2006 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by Silent H
05-28-2006 9:47 AM


Re: misunderstanding
i'm sorry, i read back a few pages.
but what exactly is your position? i can't figure it out for the life of me. maybe i'm just stupid.
The concept of "date rape" itself is contentious. What objective definition was used,
contentious, yes, but there are such things as laws. since rape is something that happens between two (or more) people, there is a legal defition. while it's always debatable in court, (does "if you really love me..." count as coercion? technically consent that is not freely given constitutes rape under the law, but i could see this being argued in court...) most educational programs i'm aware of teach people how to avoid situations that may get them raped, or avoid situations where they could be a statutory rapist. it's not so much an issue of what is and what is not precisely legal, but how to avoid questionable situations.
If your group was so successful, why could its methods not be used to teach people how to say no until they were ready, and before they actually have sex that they should THEN privately seek clinical answers from a physician regarding sex?
people fuck.
really, they just do. it happens. it always has happened, and it always will happen. nothing you can say will stop people from fucking. it's not that abstinence-only fails, it's that abstinence fails. you can teach a person to wait all you want, but really it only takes one screw up. and people do screw up. and study after study has shown that ignorance is harmful.
how is a student to know the dangers of unprotected anal sex if you neither teach them about anal sex, nor protection? telling them to talk to a doctor before having sex is all well and good, until you realize that abstinence-only students tend to have anal and oral sex because they don't think it counts as sex.
yes, "wait, and talk to a doctor when you're ready" is responsible, but so is wearing a condom, and so is birth control. knowing that your first safety net is particularly unreliable (people fuck), would you rather have the second and third, or not?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Silent H, posted 05-28-2006 9:47 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by Silent H, posted 11-07-2006 5:52 AM arachnophilia has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1371 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 291 of 306 (362387)
11-07-2006 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 289 by Silent H
11-07-2006 5:52 AM


Re: Spam restarts thread?
I argued that sex ed programs need only focus on physical issues involved with reproduction and protection (from diseases or pregnancy). This would deliver all that is REQUIRED to prevent harm, without adding cultural baggage which would cause people to reject the programs, or involve cultural indoctrination of others.
but the things is that abstinence is a physical issue, and it does prevent std's and babies. there is no reason that it shouldn't one of the issues discussed. just not the only issue.
The programs schraf and brenna recommended involved cultural artifacts that did not make sense and would potentially be counterproductive. You CAN come up with a single program which discusses all of the physical dimensions of sexual activity as they will be the same for everyone everywhere, regardless of moral concepts and laws. One CANNOT come up with a single program that involves both physical and other dimensions of sexual activity.
contrary to some peoples' beliefs, sex is not a purely physical activity.
...it's not so much an issue of what is and what is not precisely legal, but how to avoid questionable situations.
You mean questionable situations such as fornication, or homosexuality?
no, questionable situations like having sex with drunk people. or getting drunk in the wrong atmosphere. that alcohol is a major factor in date-rape is not moralistic call, it is a statistical one. such programs typically talk about on that level -- be careful of who gives you alcohol.
These are against the law in many cultures. Do you think it is smart to have a sex ed program that either discusses legality from just the US point of view, or one that attempts to understand and discuss sex from the legal standpoint of all the different cultures they'd be taught in?
where did you get the impression it was about what is and what is not legal? i specifically said it was not. "rape" has a legal definition, but most sex-ed programs are not about the law, they are about protection.
Indeed I may paraphrase your later statements. Not only does abstinence fail, but so does avoidance of questionable or illegal activity.
yes, and i see no reason not to discuss everything, and give people as much information as possible.
Emotional manipulation (ie "If you love me you'll have sex with me") equated to rape? Sheesh.
when consent is not freely given, it is rape. while that's a relatively weak form of coercion, it is coercion nonetheless.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Silent H, posted 11-07-2006 5:52 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by Silent H, posted 11-07-2006 12:02 PM arachnophilia has not replied
 Message 296 by Jon, posted 11-07-2006 5:21 PM arachnophilia has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1371 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 298 of 306 (362545)
11-08-2006 2:27 AM
Reply to: Message 296 by Jon
11-07-2006 5:21 PM


Re: Spam restarts thread?
No no no, you've got it all wrong. In my state, at least, coercion is defined in the following ways:
is this strictly a legal question? i can't find a nice legal definition of coercion for my state (fl) just this second, but rape-prevention organizations tend to include emotional manipulation in their definitions of coercion.
it's relatively weak, compared to the threat of physical violence. but the issue is trying to manipulate a person to give consent, after they have already denied it. and manipulation to obtain consent, consent that is not freely given, tends to constitute to rape. at least, as i understand it.
maybe someone can find some court cases?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by Jon, posted 11-07-2006 5:21 PM Jon has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by Silent H, posted 11-08-2006 5:27 AM arachnophilia has not replied

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