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Author Topic:   abstinece-only sex education
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 128 of 306 (313122)
05-18-2006 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Coragyps
05-15-2006 5:28 PM


syphalis has been afflicting europeans since before the 1500s.

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 130 of 306 (313128)
05-18-2006 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Faith
05-16-2006 8:25 AM


Re: More evidence of the Failure of Abstinence programs.
how many must die for your "we'll wait and see?"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Faith, posted 05-16-2006 8:25 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Faith, posted 05-18-2006 12:24 PM macaroniandcheese has replied
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 148 of 306 (313231)
05-18-2006 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Faith
05-18-2006 12:24 PM


Re: More evidence of the Failure of Abstinence programs.
well, you'd have to let us implement it to find out. and that will never happen.
not to mention earlier in the thread you owned the "we'll wait and see" as your own "wise" words.
flip... flop.
Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 149 of 306 (313241)
05-18-2006 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Faith
05-18-2006 2:10 AM


Re: MORALS
HOW the program is set up I really don't know. Nobody has bothered to give the outlines on this thread. All that's been said on this thread is that it doesn't work, therefore it's evil, and the way it doesn't work is by the kids doing the opposite of what the program advocates.
so you're just really frothing at the mouth waxing poetical about your grand morals and the utter depravity of the rest of us who would like to see real information provided to kids to prevent the spread of disease?
why don't you get off your soapbox and bother to do a little research. just a little google search. your opinions are not constructive or contributing in the slightest.

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 150 of 306 (313246)
05-18-2006 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
05-15-2006 1:09 PM


the biggest problem with abstinence only education is the lies. i'll share a few anecdotes from my own experience.
i was taught in my state-mandated life management skills class with abstinence only bent that the pores in latex condoms are bigger than both the aids virus and sperm and there was no point in using one. no one discussed the dangers or oral or anal sex and the std transmissions associated with them. also, no one discussed with us how birth control pills work or any other methods.
one day this obnoxious kid in my anat phys class brought up anal sex and my teacher informed him that the anal tissue is non-lubricating and is more likely to tear during intercourse and thus will spread disease more easily. but this was not in a sex-ed class or under such curriculum. just a good teacher being honest with students instead of feeding them bullshit.
having grown up in abstinence-only education systems in a bleeding county in a red state, i can tell you that i was greatly disadvantaged in my sexual health. i was fortunate that i have massive social handicaps and was not involved in any relationships until college. however, i was ill-equipped to deal with emotional and sexual abuse from boyfriends and other men in my life. i was not prepared with sexual self-respect. i was not prepared with any real-life how to communicate knowledge. i was only given a vague "just don't do it" line. in spite of my own intelligence, it was difficult to obtain the proper sexual health information on my own. i was not informed on the emotional toll of mere petting nor was i prepared for the issues relating to oral sex. moreover, my 'wait for the one' education left me vulnerable to that first asshole who told me he'd marry me and whom everyone liked and approved of (or at least seemed to). the reluctance of my mother to discuss the subject of sex and interpersonal relations has left me the most unprepared. not to mention the fact that i still can't discuss my sex life with her...
my abstinence-only upbringing has left me shy about asking my doctor about sexual health as well. this is the absolute worst part of it all. i can't even talk to the one person sworn to secrecy.
fortunately, i've come a long way after having some very wise friends assist me with my issues. but i know that had i been provided with better knowledge, i would have been able to make wiser decisions and even further delay my sexual activity. see, what people like faith don't see is that most of us would love to see more teens delaying sexual activity. it's risky behavior, especially for people who are not fully emotionally prepared for it. but we don't feel that people can make such wise decisions with a meager moral instruction. people need all the facts. i can't know not to buy a car if i don't understand debt, and financing, and how expensive rent is, and how much utilities are and so forth, not to mention gas prices. moreover, i need to be educated so i can choose which car i want to buy and to wait for the right car instead of buying the first one with a shiny paint job. don't tell me not to buy a car because i will get into a wreck. tell me what is involved in car buying and car ownership. same deal with sex.

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Replies to this message:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 158 of 306 (313374)
05-18-2006 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Faith
05-18-2006 5:28 PM


thanks asshole. call me crazy.
no. i need proper instruction in matters that are important to my personal health. i need truth instead of lies, moralizing, and bullshit. and so do the children in our nation. and you are deaf to all of it and because you can't pry your self-righteous bible out of your ass, you are killing our children.
and you still aren't contributing to the debate. you have discussed nothing regarding sex education programs. not even a single anecdote. not a single stray fact about anything except one puny (and incorrect) factoid about syphallis and gonnorhea being the only stds before the 1960s. stop talking about how godless and worthless we are and start discussing reality with us. you've spent your entire time on this thread preaching about how you can't discuss anything with us because we don't speak the same language. so start translating or piss off. this is a board for discussion and debate and you are merely raving. start your own thread about how we don't speak the same language and keep that bullshit excuse off the rest of the board.
Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.
Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Faith, posted 05-18-2006 5:28 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 190 of 306 (313605)
05-19-2006 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Faith
05-19-2006 11:10 AM


Re: misunderstanding
the point isn't that the class should deal with these issues, but instead that a properly designed sex-ed course could have prevented them. a properly designed sex-ed course will deal with preparing children for the emotional, physical and psychological reprocussions of sexual activity without moral judgement. telling children that what their bodies tell them is BAD or EVIL is counterproductive. you create self-hate and distrust and shame. it is acceptable to discuss the wisdom of early sexual activity (or the lack thereof) but you must share this information without berating and shaming people. we're trying to prevent abuse, not perpetrate it ourselves.
often, honest sexual information will succeed in delaying sexual activity. for several years, in fact. there is no evidence to suggest that shame-based abstinence-only education succeeds in this... quite the opposite.
and forgive me for being offended, you don't tend to give advice that isn't also biting and hiding insult.
Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Faith, posted 05-19-2006 11:10 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Faith, posted 05-19-2006 6:27 PM macaroniandcheese has replied
 Message 215 by Silent H, posted 05-20-2006 6:45 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 191 of 306 (313607)
05-19-2006 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
05-19-2006 4:53 PM


Re: My view confirmed in spades
i think it's between 1/3 and 1/2 of sexually active people have hpv. but 3 in 4 people with hpv don't have symptoms.

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 Message 188 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 05-19-2006 4:53 PM SuperNintendo Chalmers has replied

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 198 of 306 (313628)
05-19-2006 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Faith
05-19-2006 6:27 PM


Re: misunderstanding
perhaps not. but abstinence-only education does.

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 223 of 306 (313863)
05-20-2006 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by Silent H
05-20-2006 6:45 AM


Re: misunderstanding
you're both missing the point.
a well designed sex ed course would first cover a very detailed, medical discussion of sex, sexual arousal, and sexual desire. then it would discuss stds and pregnancy. how, what, etc. then contraceptives and profilactics.
but the course is not complete without finishing with a discussion of how to make the decision to start having sex. how to analyse if you are ready and how to say no if you are not. have people discuss how sex can affect your emotions. have people discuss how sex can change the way you think. don't give kids timelines, don't suggest that they are too young. but prepare them to make that judgement.
if you haven't given them all the information, you are not being honest. if you only tell kids the medical information, you're not preparing them. sex can immensely affect your brain. it releases MASSIVE neurotransmitters. and if you don't prepare them for that, then you are lying. you can very easily tell someone that 'you might think you're in love with someone after you have sex' without shaming them. you can also honestly tell people that 'people will try to coerce you and that is not acceptable' without shaming them.
if my sex-ed class had been designed this way, i would have been much better prepared for dealing with sexuality.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 224 of 306 (313866)
05-20-2006 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Silent H
05-20-2006 6:29 AM


Re: I'll explain it to you AGAIN, Faith
what exactly is wrong with porn?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by iano, posted 05-20-2006 1:16 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 227 of 306 (313904)
05-20-2006 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by iano
05-20-2006 1:16 PM


Re: I'll explain it to you AGAIN, Faith
um. what?

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 239 of 306 (314074)
05-21-2006 2:09 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by Silent H
05-20-2006 4:02 PM


Re: misunderstanding
I'm sorry, but that is true whether one has sex or not. Indeed lack of sex can just as easily allow one to get more hooked on a person or idea than is realistic. Take a check on the goof balls that flew those planes into the WTC towers, or choked down the Koolaid in Jonestown. The Shakers were celibate yet quaked as if in orgasm in the thought of God.
What's funny is that you are talking to me like I have never had sex or something. The first time didn't change jack, except for dispelling the illusion that people built "first time" into. And that is the common theme I have heard amongst most people.
Sex is sex. It is pleasurable and may involve building a relationship, or not. Sometimes people realize they were confusing sexual attraction with love only after they had it and figured out the difference. That is one of the problems of conflating sex with love and relationships.
i didn't say it had anything to do with a relationship. i'm just saying it fucks with your head. read. good god, man.
Okay, but that is asking classes be tailored to your personal needs. Not everyone needs what you need. Isn't it true that if you had gotten the rest of that elsewhere you wouldn't have needed it in class? And isn't it possible you could have gotten it elsewhere outside of class? I don't know about your school but mine had school counselors that handled that kind of stuff.
couldn't we get physical sexual information from other sources besides the class? isn't that what parents are for?
clearly our outside sources don't do their jobs. that's what the sex ed class exists for in the first place. why stop halfway? i'm not suggesting a cultural indoctrination program. i honestly don't know what you're talking about. i'm talking about discussing impacts and rights. as in legal rights. i have the right to not ever be coerced into anything. i have a right to be prepared to rebuff such. if our parents can't tell us what a penis is for, do you really think they are going to be able to tell us how to say no to someone?
I really believe in cultural diversity, which means keeping even my (**superior**) beliefs out of the educational agenda for other people's kids.
i'm not talking about indoctrinating kids with anyones beliefs. i'm talking about telling kids that sex is thus. and sex can cause thus. false emotional attachment is a sexually transmitted disease just like aids. coercion is rape. if someone says "if you really loved me," it is rape. and kids deserve to be prepared to rebuff it. i'm not talking about individualism, i'm talking about personal safety. metal health is health.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Silent H, posted 05-20-2006 4:02 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by Silent H, posted 05-21-2006 5:29 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 240 of 306 (314076)
05-21-2006 2:15 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by Faith
05-20-2006 7:27 PM


Re: Attempt at a complete outline of my position
Also, it is primarily not about health or self-respect, it's about living in accord with this law, a law that runs this universe -- and if you do that, as a consequence you will be blessed with health, and if you don't do that you can count on negative repercussions.
like having cervical cancer because you were a good girl and waited until marriage and your husband wasn't so clean like a friend of mine's mother.
faith, your happy little world of right and wrong and reprocussions just isn't realistic. god doesn't protect the good and punish the wicked. stop acting like this is the case.
my mother was a virgin when she married at 26. my mother shuns oral sex and masturbation. she has endometriosis. she lost her uterus to it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Faith, posted 05-20-2006 7:27 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by Faith, posted 05-21-2006 2:32 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 247 of 306 (314099)
05-21-2006 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by Silent H
05-21-2006 5:29 AM


Re: misunderstanding
This is a discussion of life coaching and the "impacts" and "legal rights" differ from region to region and over time. Yeah I agree you have the right to rebuff coercion. But what counts as coercion? To a raving antisex feminist and a Xian fundie these may be too totally seperate things, even if both called coercion.
and people in different areas have different school boards that build different curricula. you're not giving real responses here. there is a legal definition of coercion.
Legal rights are especially slippery. So if porn is outlawed you be for teachers telling your kids they should be thinking its bad and rejecting it and turning in friends and parents who might have it? What if homosexual marriage is made unconstitutional, you want teachers telling your kids they should resist people trying to get them into homosexual relationships because they may have no future? Heck, homosexual sex itself was not a right up until a couple years ago, and was a crime in most places. In some areas having sex with vibrators is still a crime and not a right. I know I don't want my kids taught about legal rights from a state appointed "teacher".
no. you don't tell people it's bad. you tell them it's illegal. and since when is marriage the goal of a relationship?
and guess what. in your american government class, state teachers are teaching your kids about legal rights.
And I'm just aghast that you'd equate a person saying "if you loved me" with rape. That has absolutely NOTHING in common with rape. You are simply preparing a whole class of new "I, victim" pathologies.
it is legal coercion and thus rape.
I totally grant that you may have been hurt by someone emotionally. Apparently because you felt that you wanted someone's love and to prove your own love and so have sex, which I guess you really didn't want to do? Okay. That's you. It is legitimate for you to feel that way for yourself.
nope. way off base. just because i talk about something doesn't mean i experienced it.
It's exactly why I want teachers sticking to facts and not trying to convert my kids to whatever the US victim culture wants others to believe.
you're insane. i'm not talking about making victims. i'm talking about empowering people with all the facts.
Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Silent H, posted 05-21-2006 5:29 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by Jazzns, posted 05-21-2006 11:25 AM macaroniandcheese has replied
 Message 261 by Silent H, posted 05-22-2006 4:55 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

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