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Author Topic:   What Is The Positive Evidence For Atheism?
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2592 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 286 of 301 (437591)
11-30-2007 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by Cold Foreign Object
11-30-2007 5:21 PM


Re: Materialism: Answering NJ
wow, how many things can you get wrong in a single post, ray?
God DID do it, the evidence says so. To say this "emasculates science" presupposes a pro-Materialism attitude
How is saying "God Did it" without any explanation of how god did it a useful answer? What does it tell us about the world? Does it explain how thinks work?
Imagine:
Son: Daddy, why is the sky blue?
Dad: God did it.
Son: How did god do it?
Dad: God did it.
Son: But how?
Dad: Cause God can and he did.
Son: can you answer the question meaningfully?
Dad: yes; god did it.
In reality, we know the sky is blue because of refraction of light hitting water (and other substances) molecules and the absorbtion of specific spectrums of light (visible and otherwise) by those molecules. Understanding how colors are created can be important for any number of fields, having applications fromp physics to painting.
The purpose of science is to understand how and why things happen with meaningful answers. By removing god from the explanation, you remove the easy, non-meaningful answer and false answers and it allows you to get to the heart of the matter. God in the picture allows for any possibility to be true (if the god is omnipotent and/or omniscienient and/or all-knowing) or no answer whatsoever, allowing no furtherance of useful knowledge. This does not mean that god (if you believe in him) is not at the controls or the cause of what is happening, but rather, the naturalistic or materialistic explanations are how god does it.
Since all Atheists are evolutionists
False.
evolution is the positive evidence . . .evolution is an assumption . . .assumptions are not evidence
Good contradiction. Not only is your argument wrong logically (not all atheists are evolutionists and you are missing a second premise to draw your conclusion) but you have contradiction yourself in claiming that evolution is evidence and then saying it isn't. Happy?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-30-2007 5:21 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-30-2007 6:04 PM kuresu has replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3127 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 287 of 301 (437592)
11-30-2007 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by nator
11-30-2007 5:28 PM


Re: Ray! Pay attention! Nator: stop being naive and a legalist
The vast vast majority of Atheists are evolutionists. It is not inaccurate to say "all Atheists are evolutionists."
With this said: evolution is the positive evidence for Atheism. Atheists cannot be telling the truth with they deny, why else are they Atheists and evolutionists?
Atheists deny that evolution is their positive evidence because that would make fools out of their lap dogs, TEists.
Ray
Edited by Cold Foreign Object, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by nator, posted 11-30-2007 5:28 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by jar, posted 11-30-2007 5:58 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied
 Message 289 by nator, posted 11-30-2007 6:00 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied
 Message 290 by crashfrog, posted 11-30-2007 6:00 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied
 Message 291 by kuresu, posted 11-30-2007 6:00 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34051
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 288 of 301 (437596)
11-30-2007 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by Cold Foreign Object
11-30-2007 5:53 PM


The question
Why do you huddle in fear Ray?
Why is it after almost 300 messages you still cannot answer the simple question.
Is this thread going to be like all the pyramid nonsense threads and red hand threads and all those other threads where all that was accomplished was that you showed the world you could not read or do simple math?
Why do you think that positive evidence is needed to not believe in Ghkjsduuiybhuiufstyfyu?
Can you answer the question Ray?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-30-2007 5:53 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2249 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 289 of 301 (437598)
11-30-2007 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by Cold Foreign Object
11-30-2007 5:53 PM


Re: Ray! Pay attention! Nator: stop being naive and a legalist
quote:
The vast vast majority of Atheists are evolutionists. It is not inaccurate to say "all Atheists are evolutionists."
Er, since when does "all" mean exactly the same thing as "most"?
If Raelians are Atheists who also do not accept the ToE, then not ALL Atheists are Evolutionists.
If you give me $100 to keep safe for you, and when you asked for ALL of it back I gave you $80, would you consider it OK?
If ALL and MOST mean the same thing, it shouldn't matter, right?
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-30-2007 5:53 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1546 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 290 of 301 (437599)
11-30-2007 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by Cold Foreign Object
11-30-2007 5:53 PM


Re: Ray! Pay attention! Nator: stop being naive and a legalist
The vast vast majority of Atheists are evolutionists. It is not inaccurate to say "all Atheists are evolutionists."
Please, it's not. "All" is not a synonym for "most."
Really, you should know better than that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-30-2007 5:53 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2592 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 291 of 301 (437600)
11-30-2007 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by Cold Foreign Object
11-30-2007 5:53 PM


Re: Ray! Pay attention! Nator: stop being naive and a legalist
actually, it is absolutely inaccurate to label all atheists as evolutionists if there is a fair sized group that isn't evolutionist.
Further, since you have claimed that assumptions are not evidence, and since you have claimed evolution is an assumption, you cannot state that evolution is positive evidence for atheism.
So ray, what is the posistive evidence for atheism, since you have so masterfully excluded evolution?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-30-2007 5:53 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3127 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 292 of 301 (437602)
11-30-2007 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by kuresu
11-30-2007 5:45 PM


Re: Materialism: Answering Kuresu
Imagine:
Son: Daddy, why is the sky blue?
Dad: God did it.
Son: How did god do it?
Dad: God did it.
Son: But how?
Dad: Cause God can and he did.
Son: can you answer the question meaningfully?
Dad: yes; god did it.
Imagine:
Son: Daddy, why is the sky blue?
Dad: evolution did it.
Son: How did god do it?
Dad: evolution did it.
Son: But how?
Dad: Cause Evolution can and it did do it. It made bat sonar (imagine that).
Son: can you answer the question meaningfully?
Dad: yes; evolution did it. If you deny the Media (evolutionists) will paint you as a stupid Fundamentlist. Believe me Johnny, evolution-did-it.
Believe it or not, when Jonathan Wells debated Michael Shermer, some lady stood up and recounted your blue box, making fun of God.
Wells in response said the only other option is evolution-did-it. An uncomfortable silence overtook the room. What he was really saying was "Atheist-ideas-did-it."
Atheists have taken the place of God and we won't bow to their evil, not for one second.
By the way Kuresu, your new avatar is much better. It is a good picture.
Ray

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by kuresu, posted 11-30-2007 5:45 PM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by crashfrog, posted 11-30-2007 6:09 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied
 Message 295 by kuresu, posted 11-30-2007 6:28 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1546 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 293 of 301 (437605)
11-30-2007 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by Cold Foreign Object
11-30-2007 6:04 PM


Re: Materialism: Answering Kuresu
Wells in response said the only other option is evolution-did-it.
Except that evolution didn't do it. Evolution doesn't do anything. Evolution is simply the description of how it was done. To say that "God did it" is to end the conversation. To say that evolution was the cause is to begin a conversation about how natural laws and phenomena gave rise to what we see before us.
Johnathan Wells can't tell the difference between a nonsense explanation and an explanation that is actually meaningful and probative. Surely you don't suffer the same malady?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-30-2007 6:04 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-30-2007 6:25 PM crashfrog has replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3127 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 294 of 301 (437608)
11-30-2007 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by crashfrog
11-30-2007 6:09 PM


Re: Materialism: Answering CF
To say that "God did it" is to end the conversation. To say that evolution was the cause is to begin a conversation about how natural laws and phenomena gave rise to what we see before us.
You are saying, HERE, that it doesn't matter what the truth is, if God did do it then let's deny to keep the conversation going.
But the conversation will keep going because now that we know God has done it we can get on with studying His word, which generates endless conversation = what God wants. He doesn't want mankind debating endlessly how animals came to be. Genesis says species are specially created - end of story.
The Bible says: "man shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God."
Therefore, that is the purpose of the truth (God did do it) so we can get on with what is important: all the words which proceed from His mouth.
Ray

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by crashfrog, posted 11-30-2007 6:09 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by kuresu, posted 11-30-2007 6:33 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied
 Message 297 by crashfrog, posted 11-30-2007 8:27 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2592 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 295 of 301 (437609)
11-30-2007 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by Cold Foreign Object
11-30-2007 6:04 PM


Re: Materialism: Answering Kuresu
of course, what you missed is that I'm not advocating a blank, non-meaningful answer.
I explained how and why the sky is blue. Without resorting to non-answers, non-meaningful answers (and hopefully) false answers. This is in opposition to the typical "god did it" (or in your case "evolution did it"), which doesn't contain any meaninful answers.
by the way, why is your son asking how god did it?
now then, how about responding to your contradiction?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-30-2007 6:04 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2592 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 296 of 301 (437611)
11-30-2007 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by Cold Foreign Object
11-30-2007 6:25 PM


Re: Materialism: Answering CF
Genesis says species are specially created - end of story.
This is the "god did it" answer. The answer that doesn't really answer anything, the answer which science avoids like the plague.
What interests science, in this case, would be how the species were specially created (if indeed they really were/are).
To me it seems like your real problem is that science isn't really interested in learning about the words that come from your god's mouth, but rather, that science wants to know about the world your god created, whereas you would rather science be interested in learning your god's words.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-30-2007 6:25 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1546 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 297 of 301 (437634)
11-30-2007 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by Cold Foreign Object
11-30-2007 6:25 PM


Re: Materialism: Answering CF
You are saying, HERE, that it doesn't matter what the truth is, if God did do it then let's deny to keep the conversation going.
If God did do it, how did he do it? How does it tell us how to do it? If God created tuberculosis, how does that tell us how it's going to react to antibiotics?
He doesn't want mankind debating endlessly how animals came to be.
So you worship the god of ignorance. Well, that's good to know, anyway.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-30-2007 6:25 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 298 of 301 (437649)
11-30-2007 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by Modulous
11-30-2007 11:32 AM


Modulus writes:
Sure there are still gaps in our knowledge, and you are free to squeeze god into them. However, evolution did explain a territory that was completely dominated by theistic explanations.
I'm not trying to squeeze God into anything. My understanding of science, correct is I'm wrong, is that the results require physical evidence. Let's say that science is able to delve back and show how the first cell could have been formed from non-organic material. Science would still not be able to answer why it happened at all.
Modulus writes:
However, science does have a lot to say about why we exist. We are here because our parent's genes successfully copied about 50% of themselves each. Our parent's were here for the same reason. Now, 4 billion years of explanation for why we are here is a pretty damned impressive chunk of god's domain invaded. Sure we can still invoke god during that 4 billion year history, but the point is it is no longer necessary to do so. No longer does the startling complexity of life necessitate a designer, another, less incredible, explanation exists for most if not all of that.
As Reagen would have said, "there you go again". You are talking about a long complex process to get us where we are today and then because we have discovered the process you say that we have done away with the need for God.
I'll try again with a point I made to NJ. Lets' say that geneticists had discovered that man's DNA indicated that he had come from soil in the area of Sumeria 6000 years ago, and then lo and behold the DNA of women showed that their history went back to some guy's rib around the same time. Now you could make the claim that science had answered all the questions and now we don't need God anymore.
Just because we make a discovery of our biological history tells us nothing about the need for a creator. I repeat, science is agnostic.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by Modulous, posted 11-30-2007 11:32 AM Modulous has not replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 299 of 301 (437654)
11-30-2007 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by Hyroglyphx
11-30-2007 12:48 PM


Re: Who is misreading?
NJ writes:
If God purposed anything, then He controls the direction. We would be the ship, but He would be the rudder, no? If evolution is a totally unguided process, then how does someone like GDR reconcile that? It seems to me that he won't be able to occupy both positions. He has to get rid of one in order for the other to be true.
I've never claimed that evolution is an unguided process. I'm not prepared to say whether God started the ball rolling in such a way that everything was laid out at that time, or if He had a hand in the genetic mutations that haved occured as the process unfolded. (I'm inclined towards the latter, but that is just conjecture on my part.)

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-30-2007 12:48 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-30-2007 11:11 PM GDR has not replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 300 of 301 (437667)
11-30-2007 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 299 by GDR
11-30-2007 10:14 PM


Re: Who is misreading?
I've never claimed that evolution is an unguided process. I'm not prepared to say whether God started the ball rolling in such a way that everything was laid out at that time, or if He had a hand in the genetic mutations that haved occured as the process unfolded. (I'm inclined towards the latter, but that is just conjecture on my part.)
But that's what evolution is, otherwise its design. Even if God started the ball rolling with evolution and didn't control where it went, then that is indicative of an unguided process. If He does control evolution, then He is directly responsible for horrific mutations. That means He wouldn't simply allow such things, like He would with Special Creation, but that He made it so.
Seems like quite the conundrum really.
I'm also sorry, but I have to close the thread. We've reached our 300 limit. But feel free to write a sequel thread if you (or anyone else) would like to see this continue.
Edited by Nemesis Juggernaut, : No reason given.

“This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by GDR, posted 11-30-2007 10:14 PM GDR has not replied

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