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Taz
Member (Idle past 3379 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 76 of 93 (386333)
02-21-2007 12:52 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by crashfrog
02-21-2007 12:38 AM


Re: Answering the critics
First of all, how fast do you type? Man, that was a quick response...
crash writes:
but there's plenty of similar laws, where not acting to stop or report a crime makes you an accomplice after the fact.
Actually, there are plenty of laws that require you to report a crime. These laws are called the good samaritan laws. I am not aware of any law that actually requires you to intervene, risking yourself or not.
As it is said, "all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." If evil then triumphs, what culpability do those who did nothing possess? Quite a bit, it seems to me.
For the record, I agree with this quote completely, which is why I often go out of my way to intervene and help people.
But I can't help but notice a similarity between this and voting. Allow me to reword that quote just a little bit. All that is necessary for a democracy to fail is for people not to vote. My polical science professor told me a kazillion times that he believed if our democracy ever fails it will fail from within by people not participating in it. However, I'd hate to see legislations that actually force people to go vote.
Telling ourselves how right we are isn't something I'm interested in doing, and it doesn't further the cause.
Inaction is often neither right nor wrong.
I'm interested in what arguments convince people.
I have no doubt. But be honest, how likely are you going to be able to convince NJ that fetuses and infants aren't people?
My approach, on the other hand, accepts all their presuppositions. I'm trying to make the case that even if fetuses are people, and even if a zygote is to be considered a person, a woman still has every right to choose to eject it from her body.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by crashfrog, posted 02-21-2007 12:38 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by crashfrog, posted 02-21-2007 9:47 AM Taz has replied

Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3513 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 77 of 93 (386334)
02-21-2007 1:20 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Hyroglyphx
02-20-2007 11:35 AM


The real question is why gender roles are something to look down on in straights, but something applauded in homosexuals. There seems to be some disparity. Why is that?
What are you talking about?
Could you please give some examples or even just elaborate a little on this position?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-20-2007 11:35 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3513 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 78 of 93 (386335)
02-21-2007 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Taz
02-21-2007 12:23 AM


Re: Answering the critics
Sorry to butt in...
but that doesn't mean we can give out legal penalties for those who refuse to do so... unless they're lifeguards.
But not doctors?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Taz, posted 02-21-2007 12:23 AM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Taz, posted 02-21-2007 2:23 AM Jaderis has replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3379 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 79 of 93 (386336)
02-21-2007 2:23 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Jaderis
02-21-2007 2:13 AM


Re: Answering the critics
jaderis writes:
But not doctors?
Actually, I knew someone was going to bring this up. If it's a racist lifeguard working for a racist organization, then no there shouldn't be any penalty for not saving a black person as long as they make it known to people that they don't save black people at their beach.
If you had read my other argument about doctors, you would have known that I don't just support blindly a racist doctor's right to refuse treatment. My whole argument in the other thread was about public versus private institutions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Jaderis, posted 02-21-2007 2:13 AM Jaderis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Jaderis, posted 02-21-2007 2:51 AM Taz has replied

Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3513 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 80 of 93 (386338)
02-21-2007 2:51 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Taz
02-21-2007 2:23 AM


Re: Answering the critics
My intention was not to try to drag this thread off topic, but I just have one question (which I probably should have asked in the other thread, but oh well). You brought up lifeguards, presumably, as an example of someone who specifically took upon an occupation which would require him/her to save people and has received the requisite training in order to make that happen.
The question I had from the other thread is, why shouldn't we be allowed to penalize someone who has taken on a specific occupation that entails specific responsibilities, when they fail to meet those responsibilities?
I would think that if racist doctors wanted to form their own licensing body (which is probably illegal) then they may be able to get away with what you propose should be the case, but they are still licensed and allowed to practice by a governing body that requires them to save anyone's life no matter what hospital they work for or if they have their own private practice. To allow racist doctors to form their own licensing body you would have to decentralize the entire medical establishment and anyone could form their own version of the AMA or what have you and you could have practically anyone allowed to practice medicine regardless of qualifications as long as their parent licensing body deemed them "able." Much like fire brigades in US urban areas in the late 18th/early 19th centuries were uncentralized and homes/buildings often had to display a symbol of allegiance of some sort in order for a certain brigade to put out the fire no matter if they were the first on scene or not.
The bottom line is, if you sign up for specific lines of work, you also sign up for the obligations inherent in the job. If you have some quality about yourself that would inhibit you from performing the job (you are too small/tall, your religion prohibits you from touching a non-related woman, you have severe asthma, you have unsteady hands, you are a racist and will select who you will save/treat based on race, etc) then you are disqualified from said job.
I'm not sure if the other thread is still open, but as this does not specifically pertain to this thread, I will move this discussion if it needs to go further.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Taz, posted 02-21-2007 2:23 AM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
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Wounded King
Member (Idle past 120 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 81 of 93 (386341)
02-21-2007 5:12 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Jaderis
02-21-2007 1:20 AM


I'm not NJ but I think I understand the argument he is making.
NJ is saying that some people object to the assumption that men and women have to conform to certain gender roles such as women being mothers and housewives and being the caregiver in a family and men being the discipliner and breadwinner. This is the 'look down on in straights' element.
The other element is the argument that there is no reason why a gay couple can't be suitable parents for a child because they are just as capable of giving the same balance of characteristics, which are traditionally thought to be specific to one gender, as a straight couple.
As I understand it NJ seems to think that liberals think it is an abomination to have a family where dad goes out to work and mum stays home and looks after the kids but a holy miracle if dad1 goes out to work and dad2 stays home and looks after the kids.
As I say, that is just how I understood the argument, I'm sure NJ will clarify his actual position.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Jaderis, posted 02-21-2007 1:20 AM Jaderis has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1554 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 82 of 93 (386358)
02-21-2007 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Taz
02-21-2007 12:52 AM


Re: Answering the critics
First of all, how fast do you type?
I can't type. I run about 30-40 wpm with the two-finger peck method.
However, I'd hate to see legislations that actually force people to go vote.
Hasn't this been tried in various countries? Didn't Australia make it a misdemeanor or something not to vote on Election day?
But be honest, how likely are you going to be able to convince NJ that fetuses and infants aren't people?
I'd settle for convincing him that pregnant women are people; people who don't deserve to undergo forced pregnancy.
My approach, on the other hand, accepts all their presuppositions.
I know. I think most of those presuppositions are indefensible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Taz, posted 02-21-2007 12:52 AM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Taz, posted 02-21-2007 12:59 PM crashfrog has not replied

AdminModulous
Administrator
Posts: 897
Joined: 03-02-2006


Message 83 of 93 (386373)
02-21-2007 11:19 AM


Topic
Just a gentle reminder for people to keep in mind the actual topic at hand. Some interesting ideas for new threads going around here. Nem has started one, but it might be worth others considering if their current side topic might be worth bringing a thread of its very own.

New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.
Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
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Other useful links:
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tudwell
Member (Idle past 6066 days)
Posts: 172
From: KCMO
Joined: 08-20-2006


Message 84 of 93 (386380)
02-21-2007 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by crashfrog
02-20-2007 11:04 PM


Re: Answering the critics
But race is a lot more than your skin color - and, simultaneously, a lot less. Race is a socially-constructed concept that folds in physical features as well as culture.
Indeed. Just the other day, there was a black woman on the Colbert Report talking about how Barack Obama isn't really a black man because he hasn't had the history and culture of the people we typically think of when we say 'African-American'. I was initially surprised to hear her say this, but as she explained it, it made more sense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by crashfrog, posted 02-20-2007 11:04 PM crashfrog has not replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3379 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 85 of 93 (386391)
02-21-2007 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by crashfrog
02-21-2007 9:47 AM


Re: Answering the critics
crashfrog writes:
I can't type. I run about 30-40 wpm with the two-finger peck method.
My college roommate was the same way. I never figured out how he was able to write his papers so fast with his 2 finger peck method.
Hasn't this been tried in various countries? Didn't Australia make it a misdemeanor or something not to vote on Election day?
Yes, actually. Other countries, like some northern european countries, give you rewards for voting, tax deductions and stuff. It's what my political science professor referred to as the "vote card in, fruitloops out" method. It's rewarding for people who vote. Perhaps we could proceed in this way by rewarding people for saving someone else?
I'd settle for convincing him that pregnant women are people; people who don't deserve to undergo forced pregnancy.
Good enough for me.
I know. I think most of those presuppositions are indefensible.
And that's the point. I've found that it's a lot easier to convince people of your position if you assume their presuppostions first and show them that even then they're still wrong about their conclusion. Take the bible for example. I could just easily say that I believe all the stories in there are myths and I needn't worry about them. But that simply won't fly when trying to convince a fundy that his great flood story just doesn't make any sense. It's much more effective to point out the absurdities within the story itself, and sometimes their excuses like the floating matts of vegetation when the bible clearly said that everything that was not in the ark died.
Trying to convince them of your presuppositions often lead to "he says, she says" situation, which leads to nowhere productive.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by crashfrog, posted 02-21-2007 9:47 AM crashfrog has not replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3379 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 86 of 93 (386397)
02-21-2007 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Jaderis
02-21-2007 2:51 AM


Re: Answering the critics
Jaderis writes:
The question I had from the other thread is, why shouldn't we be allowed to penalize someone who has taken on a specific occupation that entails specific responsibilities, when they fail to meet those responsibilities?
And I only said it a few dozen times that we can and should penalize them. How? By not hiring them or by giving them an ultimatum of "either conform with the standards or go find a racist private institution to work in because you ain't ever going to work in a public or any private institution that knows you're a racist."
I would think that if racist doctors wanted to form their own licensing body (which is probably illegal) then they may be able to get away with what you propose should be the case, but they are still licensed and allowed to practice by a governing body that requires them to save anyone's life no matter what hospital they work for or if they have their own private practice.
What if we allow them to practice medicine but also have a law that requires them to put a big sign on their foreheads that say "no blacks allowed" or "no latinos allowed"? Like I said, there are other ways to make it safe for the rest of us and respect their rights to their beliefs without brute force.
To allow racist doctors to form their own licensing body you would have to decentralize the entire medical establishment and anyone could form their own version of the AMA or what have you and you could have practically anyone allowed to practice medicine regardless of qualifications as long as their parent licensing body deemed them "able."
I have no objection to them forming their own version of the AMA. But again, we could make it a law for them to wear a big fat sign on their foreheads (or somewhere bleedingly obvious) that they're not really doctors by our public standards. But this is a little bit of a slippery slope, don't you think?
Much like fire brigades in US urban areas in the late 18th/early 19th centuries were uncentralized and homes/buildings often had to display a symbol of allegiance of some sort in order for a certain brigade to put out the fire no matter if they were the first on scene or not.
Now, you're just pointing out nonsensical examples. Our fire departments are mostly publically owned. I think that if we start getting privately owned fire brigades that only put out fires in certain areas or homes, I think it's safe to assume they'll be put out of bussiness by the rest of us pretty soon. Just like racist doctors and whatnot. Once we know they won't treat some of us, we'll just ignore them and let them rot in their own racist circle. In such a case, neither their rights nor mine will be violated.
The bottom line is, if you sign up for specific lines of work, you also sign up for the obligations inherent in the job.
Yes, I agree, but only in public institutions. Look, we allow private owners to do things we don't allow in public institutions all the time. In a lot of places, privately owned companies still have the right not to hire you if they know you're gay. I simply don't see why we make it an exception for some professions.
If you have some quality about yourself that would inhibit you from performing the job (you are too small/tall, your religion prohibits you from touching a non-related woman, you have severe asthma, you have unsteady hands, you are a racist and will select who you will save/treat based on race, etc) then you are disqualified from said job.
Disqualified from the job, yes, and I've been saying this same thing all this time. If we find out they won't treat some of us, we'll put pressure on the hospital or whatnot and get them fired, that is assuming the hospital hasn't already fired them outright. They can then go to some redneck town and open an office with a big fat sign that says "will only treat white people" (by law of course) and see how long the office will stay open.
Look, I'm not saying what you think I am saying. I'm simply saying we should still allow them to work and keep their beliefs. What we can do is regulate how it will work. We could, for example, force them to put up disclaimer signs. We could forbid them to work in any public hospital. We could even put pressure on the private hospitals. We could do a lot of things to make the rest of us safe AND allow them to keep their beliefs without brute force. If they want to be a doctor who only treats white people, fine. The rest of us will just put them out of bussiness through boycott and whatnot. (Perhaps intimidation? Haha, just kidding.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Jaderis, posted 02-21-2007 2:51 AM Jaderis has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Asgara, posted 02-21-2007 1:39 PM Taz has not replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2390 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 87 of 93 (386404)
02-21-2007 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Taz
02-21-2007 1:21 PM


Re: Answering the critics
Look, we allow private owners to do things we don't allow in public institutions all the time. In a lot of places, privately owned companies still have the right not to hire you if they know you're gay
Actually the issue of whether or not a company is privately owned has nothing to do with whether or not it can discriminate.
A private, tax exempt CLUB has more leeway...from Title VII
quote:
a bona fide private membership club (other than a labor organization)
which is exempt from taxation under section 501(c) of title 26 [the
Internal Revenue Code of 1954]
Federal Law -
quote:
Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (Title VII), prohibits employment discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, or national origin;

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Taz, posted 02-21-2007 1:21 PM Taz has not replied

truthlover
Member (Idle past 4147 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 88 of 93 (386417)
02-21-2007 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Dan Carroll
02-16-2007 1:41 PM


I'm mostly dodging this political debate as likely not to be fun, but I'm very curious about a couple things you said, Dan. I have not read the whole 87 post thread yet, so if this has been covered, sorry.
I do think that as long as the 2nd amendment is on the books, it should be followed.
Based on only what a couple liberals said to me (so maybe my sources were the exception), I thought it was a typical liberal position that the 2nd amendment referred to militia only, not the right of individual citizens.
I will note that a Google search turned up liberalswithguns.com that says a lot of liberals are pro individual citizens having guns for the sake of national defense. I didn't have time to find any more liberal web sites, because my search almost exclusively turned up anti-liberal web sites that I of course can't use to know the average liberal mind.
As has been explained to you over and over (and over and over) again, liberals don't think manger scenes should be illegal.
Can you explain this to me, too? I'm pretty sure I've heard real news reports about manger scenes being protested. Do you just mean that they ought to be legal but not displayed in publicly owned buildings? Isn't the manger scene about as directly promoting of one religion as things get?
I'm not for characterizing liberals as anything, and I think the OP is ridiculous. I read "Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them," and I found that Al Franken and I mostly agree on the issues he covers, so please don't take this as some sort of attack. I'm really just asking two questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Dan Carroll, posted 02-16-2007 1:41 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Dan Carroll, posted 02-21-2007 3:55 PM truthlover has replied
 Message 90 by jar, posted 02-21-2007 4:01 PM truthlover has not replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 89 of 93 (386418)
02-21-2007 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by truthlover
02-21-2007 3:44 PM


Based on only what a couple liberals said to me (so maybe my sources were the exception), I thought it was a typical liberal position that the 2nd amendment referred to militia only, not the right of individual citizens.
In a sane world, I would honestly think that anyone who read the 2nd amendment would walk away with that in mind. But that's not how the Supreme Court seems to read it, so... *shrug*
Can you explain this to me, too? I'm pretty sure I've heard real news reports about manger scenes being protested.
I'd have to see the stories in question to say anything about them. Was it just a protest by people who didn't like it, or a bonafide attempt to outlaw a tacky fiberglass assortment of Jesus-themed yard gnomes? There's a difference.
Do you just mean that they ought to be legal but not displayed in publicly owned buildings?
Basically, but even in these cases, I think there's degrees. For instance, I have no problem whatsoever with a judge putting a manger scene in his office, but have a big problem when the court erects a manger scene in the courthouse lobby, with state money.
Either way, a pretty wild difference from NJ's view of the world.
please don't take this as some sort of attack.
Don't sweat it; didn't see anything like that in your post.

"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by truthlover, posted 02-21-2007 3:44 PM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by truthlover, posted 02-21-2007 5:04 PM Dan Carroll has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34064
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 90 of 93 (386420)
02-21-2007 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by truthlover
02-21-2007 3:44 PM


Based on only what a couple liberals said to me (so maybe my sources were the exception), I thought it was a typical liberal position that the 2nd amendment referred to militia only, not the right of individual citizens.
I will note that a Google search turned up liberalswithguns.com that says a lot of liberals are pro individual citizens having guns for the sake of national defense. I didn't have time to find any more liberal web sites, because my search almost exclusively turned up anti-liberal web sites that I of course can't use to know the average liberal mind.
Hurbert H Humphrey, Senator and US Vice-President, known as "Mr. Liberal" said:
"Certainly one of the chief guarantees of freedom under any government, no matter how popular and respected, is the right of citizens to keep and bear arms.... The right of citizens to bear arms is just one guarantee against arbitrary government, one more safeguard against the tyranny which now appears remote in America but which historically has proven to be always possible."

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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