King David found guilty on all counts.

When I was in college, I befriended a guy name David. The first time I met his girlfriend... she took my breath away.Sometimes you feel attracted to someone else's mate or potential mate, and it's understandable. We are all human. What I don't get is there are many many other women out there. Why would you feel the need to conspire to commit murder just to satisfy your moment of lust?This is further proof that our sense of morality nowadays is far superior to the people in biblical times. If I were a fundy and believed that we should follow the examples of the ancient people, I would have conspired to kill David and grabbed his girlfriend.

---

George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger

I wasn't comparing myself to the bible. I was comparing myself to King David, who was suppose to be this moral and value conservative republican...God was suppose to be all knowing and yet he chose a man that couldn't keep his penis in his pants to be king. I lived with my friend David for some time and one time when he was away at work I saw his girlfriend naked coming out of the shower. I think she purposely kept the bathroom door open... Anyhow, I apologized and promptly left the house.I'm a human being. I don't let my penis control me. A king chosen by god? We should at least expect a little more from him, don't you think? Unless of course you were referring to yourself...

---

George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger

I wasn't saying we should count the bible out as inaccurate at all. What I was saying was out of all the people out there that could have resisted the temptation to murder a man and take his beautiful wife, the all knowing god had to choose one that had what it takes to conspire to commit murder. Are you saying that stealing a candy bar is equally sinful (as in if you were to somehow scale the sinfulness of the act) as sitting there coming up with a plan to murder a friend, execute the plan, and take his wife as a trophe?Again, out of all the people that could have resisted the temptation to conspire to commit murder and commit murder, the all knowing god had to choose one that couldn't resist the temptation. I completely agree, which is why I question god's ability to choose the right people for the right jobs. I'm not arguing with the person (you). You suggested that given the right situation I could have been capable of doing what King David did. But unlike you, I am not threatened by eternal damnation or promises of heavenly rewards and yet I take many extra steps to make sure I do what I can to help other people. I would go as far as saying that while I think I am capable of doing such act I will never conspire to commit murder because of lust for his wife in any situation.Therefore, I had to assume that you were referring to yourself, and that since noone knows you better than you (*takes a breath) you suggested that anyone could do such a thing given the right situation because you suspect that you yourself given the right situation would commit such an act. I say with much humility that yes I am much better than King David and also more advanced. In college there had been many opportunities for me to have sex with a lot of girls (drunk and sober) and yet I did the unthinkable and not take advantage of them. David was chosen by an all knowing god and he actually spent the effort to conspire to kill an innocent man.It may be unthinkable for you to imagine this, but there are people out there that CAN and DO resist our sexual temptations. Like I said, you'd expect more from a king chosen by god, not less. Nope. It just means that god's judgement into who was best to lead his kingdom sucked. Are you making excuses for his crimes?

---

George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger

If I remember correctly, the twenty-thousand or so people that died during the rebellion, including his son who died and his wives who were raped by his son.

---

George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger

While I can accept your other responses (don't agree with them, though), I could have sworn you have been making excuses for King David by saying we're all human and such. While I agree with the responsible part, I simply don't understand how you can believe that everyone is responsible for his actions and yet make excuses for King David.

---

AKA G.A.S.B.Y.George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger

Ok, so let me summarize what you've said.(1) God did not make a mistake choosing David as king.(2) God was all knowing, so she obviously knew that if given the opportunity David would conspire to commit murder, commit murder, and steal the victim's wife.(3) God also knew that some 20 thousand people would have to pay for David's crime with their lives. David's wives would have to pay for David's crime by being raped by David's rebellious son.(4) God went ahead anyway and chose David.Have I summed it up correctly? If not, care to explain?Edited by Tazmanian Devil, : No reason given.

---

AKA G.A.S.B.Y.George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger

Riverrat, I personally consider talking in cryptic languages and beating around the bushes to imply one thing but saying another is a form of lying.Let's go back to this again. David committed a crime. God made 20 some thousand people die to punish david. God made David's son rape David's wives to punish David. You know, a simple yes or no to these statements should do the trick. Oh no, I stopped saying that. I'm simply asking for YOUR position now.And this isn't world literature or whatever english class you've taken. You can stop with the wise man voice now.

---

AKA G.A.S.B.Y.George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger

That's not what I asked. I did not ask if god created stuff or not. Let me repeat myself.David committed a crime. God made 20 some thousand people die to punish David. God made David's son rape David's wives to punish David. Is this a correct assessment of what the bible said?

---

AKA G.A.S.B.Y.George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger

I don't know if you and phat are being dense on purpose or not...2 Samuel 12:11 "This is what the LORD says: 'Out of your own household I (god referring to herself) am going to bring calamity upon you (you being David). Before your very eyes I (god referring to herself) will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you (referring to David's rebelling son), and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. 12 You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.' "According to an online dictionary, calamity means1. An event that brings terrible loss, lasting distress, or severe affliction; a disaster: A hurricane would be a calamity for this low-lying coastal region.2. Dire distress resulting from loss or tragedy.So, let me ask you this again. Am I correct to think that god punished David by causing his son to rebel against him, throwing the kingdom into a civil war that caused 20,000 people to die in battle. Furthermore, god punished David by making his son rape his wives.Is this assessment correct?

---

AKA G.A.S.B.Y.George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger

Read my post right before this one. How the hell did god not intervene? The passage I posted is literally god's confession to directly causing the...Phat, if you're going to continue to play this game with me, you win. I have nothing further to say.

---

AKA G.A.S.B.Y.George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger

Of course I am taking it seriously. Literally billions of people want the rest of us to follow the examples of ancient people. One of my past professors, which was a hebrew scholar, told me that he never understood why people keep wanting us to follow the examples of ancient people when it was obvious that they were savages. Remember the "kill every man, woman, child, and cattle" thing?Why am I taking this so seriously? Because some people apparently would rather try to justify murder, rape, genocide, and a myriad other crimes committed by the savages of the ancient periods than admit that there is something seriously wrong with killing every man, woman, child, and cattle.In the past, I have asked the following question: Is it right to kill a 2 year old boy just because he might try to harm Israel in the future? Out of all the fundies on this board, I got one answer from one person. Faith told me that yes it is right to kill a 2 year old toddler just because he might try to harm Israel in the future. It's not Faith that's my main point. It's all the people that didn't answer at all. What do you do whenever you are asked a question that you know your answer will make you look like a bad guy? Most of us wouldn't answer it. I suspect very much that that was the case with my question.Anyway, now you know why I take the king david myth so seriously. Apparently, a lot of people out there think we should model our morality after the savages of the ancients.

---

AKA G.A.S.B.Y.George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger

While I don't know the exact figure, I think there more than just a few. Just about around the time of every election period I have to see at least half a dozen church signs that says like "AIDS is punishment for gay people" and "gay marriage is a joke... Leviticus says this and that" on a daily basis.Somehow, I highly doubt that there are as few of them out there as you think. If I am not mistaken, you are hinting on what I would interpret as the no true scotsman. Sure, I've met some pretty decent christians in my life. I've also met the bastard ones, and they all seem to say that the decent christians aren't really christians. Sure it has. Fortunately for us, we've won the moral argument against slavery, genocide, etc. No government would stand up in front of the united nations and argue for their right to have slaves and to carry out ethnic cleansing, and yet I can think of at least half a dozen governments in the world that advocate such policy, one of which is a major nuclear power.Same thing with the christians. Only a hand full (like Faith) would stand up and make an argument for god sanctioned genocides and such. But think of all the ones that don't say anything at all. They don't argue for OR against the acts. Don't know about you, but that tells me something about what they think deep down.ADded by edit.Notice how I asked a simple question and I haven't gotten a single straight foward answer yet. Edited by Tazmanian Devil, : No reason given.

---

AKA G.A.S.B.Y.George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger

Well, we've won the moral debate on slavery, genocide, ethnic cleansing, and a myriad of other things that were common in the past. Well, the founding fathers of this country, for example, owned slaves and thought women were inferior. Sure, we can. I used to believe in god. I used to follow blindly the things that I were taught, which was to hate everyone who's not a protestant white male. Quite frankly, I don't care much for the so-called "truth" that you people seem to waver around as if it means anything.Wanna give me something more than just sentences you pulled out of fortune cookies?Added by edit.PS If you would like to discuss the subject of the changing (or unchanging) nature of man, I would be glad to discuss this with you in a new thread with it as the topic. Or, we could do a great debate. Whatever you want.Edited by Tazmanian Devil, : No reason given.

---

AKA G.A.S.B.Y.George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger

My question is how old are you? You are not really reading what I am saying. You seem to be reading what you want to see. Just because we've won the moral debate on slavery doesn't mean it is gone. Countries such as China, Haiti, and Thailand would never stand up in front of the united nations and proclaim their support for slavery BECAUSE we've won the moral argument against it. However, all of these governments advocate slavery of some forms. While I don't agree with what's happening in Iraq, I don't appreciate people's use of the word "genocide" to describe such a situation. It downplays the real genocides that happened in the past and are still happening elsewhere around the world. If you have any respect for victims of real genocides out there, please refrain from overusing such term.Again, no government would stand up in front of the world to proclaim their support for genocide BECAUSE we've won the moral debate against it, yet these things are still happening. Again, I don't know you, but how old are you? Your age is really showing here. And what's your point? BTW dude, I don't eat large meals. I'm a health nut. Well, it makes me uncomfortable knowing someone like you is out there... someone that manages to completely misread and misinterpret almost everything I said. If you wish.

---

AKA G.A.S.B.Y.George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger

This is because the way he talked is exactly like the way angry teens with raging hormones talk. They think they know everything and they think the rest of us are dumbasses. I think I will try to ignore him in the future.

---

AKA G.A.S.B.Y.George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger