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Author Topic:   King David found guilty on all counts.
ringo
Member
Posts: 16357
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 166 of 174 (382060)
02-03-2007 12:49 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by riVeRraT
02-02-2007 7:49 PM


Re: Possible but not Probable
riVeRraT writes:

... do you call flooding the earth and destroying everything good?

Short answer: if it wasn't good, God didn't do it.

(And of course we do know that the flood never happened.)

... it is safe to say after reading the bible, God's idea of good, and ours are very different.

It's safer to say that many of the stories in the Bible never happened - and many things that did happen were the works of men, not God.

And that's why we shouldn't take those stories literally.

To hell with the whole Jesus thing then.
He wasn't the son either.

Sure. There's no reason why Jesus had to be God's son. His message would still be just as valid.

It's plain to see that the stories written by man are not an accurate depiction of God.

So basically the bible is useless....

Not at all. The usefulness of a book or story has nothing to do with whether or not it literally happened.

What if you read the Bible intelligently instead of literally?

What if you read it filled with Holy Spirit?

If you were really "filled with the Holy Spirit", you would read the Bible exactly the same way as everybody else who claims to be "filled with the Holy Spirit". That doesn't happen, so somebody's claim must be wrong.

If I told myself that, then I would not be able to accept much of the bible then. I would find no power in the words within. They would just be all BS stories....

That's your problem, not a problem with the Bible. Once again, the value of the Bible has nothing to do with whether or not the stories are literally true.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by riVeRraT, posted 02-02-2007 7:49 PM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by riVeRraT, posted 02-04-2007 1:32 PM ringo has responded

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 28 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 167 of 174 (382304)
02-04-2007 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by iceage
02-02-2007 8:27 PM


Re: model of morality?
The "God Hates Fags" church (Westboro Baptist Church) claim the Holy Spirit guides them in their despicable beliefs. The United Church of Christ feel they are in step with Holy Spirit with a opening and affirming view.

The Mormons feel they are in tune to the Holy Spirit as are the Jehovah witness's.

The Christian Identity sect state in their doctrinal statement:

God may "hate the actions of fags" but I highly doubt that God hates fags. Just like God hates when I sin.

There are many false profits, and many who claim to be like Christ, and say they come in His name. You seem to have good discernment, why would you even try to claim that these churches are led by the Holy Spiti?
It's not even logical to assume that everyone in the church has the Holy Spirit.

And what is your conclusion when you everybody feels moved by the Spirit but disagree on the revelation?

I have not seen that happen yet in my church.

BTW when like minded people get together often they will "feel the same thing". Not much to hang your hat on there.

Remember the point of this discussion was the the Holy Spirit is the reason to believe the bible with its inconsistent and conflicting message is really god breathed. You have not done that with your weak and subjective "proof"

Sure they would, thats why I was explaining to you that you cannot prove anything, and I warned you that it would be subjective at best, yet you still chose to mock me.

I believe the Holy Spirit is at work in you, and it is part of why you do not believe.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by iceage, posted 02-02-2007 8:27 PM iceage has not yet responded

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 28 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 168 of 174 (382373)
02-04-2007 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by ringo
02-03-2007 12:49 AM


Re: Possible but not Probable
It's safer to say that many of the stories in the Bible never happened - and many things that did happen were the works of men, not God.

It's all the work of God. There are many amazing stories that people will attribute to God, and if I started telling them to you, you might not even believe they happened at all.
If God exists, then I believe these men who wrote these stories were inspired by God, otherwise, we might as well be sacrificing virgins to mountwannahockalugii.

Sure. There's no reason why Jesus had to be God's son. His message would still be just as valid.

No, if Jesus wasn't God's Son, Then he was a liar and not a good moral character. I would have no reason to believe Him at all. Doesn't mean I would automatically disagree with what He said.

Not at all. The usefulness of a book or story has nothing to do with whether or not it literally happened.

So it's the word of God or not?

If you were really "filled with the Holy Spirit", you would read the Bible exactly the same way as everybody else who claims to be "filled with the Holy Spirit". That doesn't happen, so somebody's claim must be wrong.

How so? Being filled with the Spirit does not make me God, or make me instantly understand EVERYTHING He is, by a long shot. I expressed that already to iceage.

You could have 1000 people in a room that all love their mom, do you think they all love their mom in the same exact way? Because each one loves their mom differently, does that mean they don't really love their mom?

A better example. Me and you could be sitting in a room, and the President walks in, gives a speech, and then leaves. We would both probably remember different things about him, and most likely even disagree on a few points about him.

So the fact the people who feel the Holy Spirit, interpret it differently is irrelevent to the Holy Spirits existance.

That's your problem, not a problem with the Bible. Once again, the value of the Bible has nothing to do with whether or not the stories are literally true.

That's highly debatable :) :laugh:


This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by ringo, posted 02-03-2007 12:49 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by ringo, posted 02-04-2007 2:19 PM riVeRraT has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16357
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 169 of 174 (382392)
02-04-2007 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by riVeRraT
02-04-2007 1:32 PM


Re: Possible but not Probable
riVeRraT writes:

If God exists, then I believe these men who wrote these stories were inspired by God....

A story can be inspired without being literally true.

No, if Jesus wasn't God's Son, Then he was a liar and not a good moral character.

No, you're jumping to conclusions.

Jesus might not have existed at all, or the gospel writers might have lied about Him, or they might have been mistaken about Him.

None of that has any bearing on the value of the message.

The usefulness of a book or story has nothing to do with whether or not it literally happened.

So it's the word of God or not?

Doesn't matter.

If the words have any value, their value is in what they say, not where they came from.

So the fact the people who feel the Holy Spirit, interpret it differently is irrelevent to the Holy Spirits existance.

I didn't say anything about the Holy Spirit's existence. I said that since different people claim different messages from the Holy Spirit, at least some of those people must be mistaken.

That's not to say that different people can't get different versions of the same message or even completely different messages. But the messages can not be contradictory and all be true.

That's what we see. One person claims that the Holy Spirit told them "God hates fags". Another person claims that the Holy Spirit told them to love the sinner but hate the sin. Another person claims that the Holy Spirit told them homosexuality is not a sin.

They all can't be right, so the safest course is to discount all of them. Don't believe anybody who claims their interpretation of the Bible comes from the Holy Spirit. Assess the interpretation on its own merits.

Once again, the value of the Bible has nothing to do with whether or not the stories are literally true.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by riVeRraT, posted 02-04-2007 1:32 PM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by riVeRraT, posted 02-05-2007 3:43 PM ringo has responded

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 28 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 170 of 174 (382635)
02-05-2007 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by ringo
02-04-2007 2:19 PM


Re: Possible but not Probable
That's what we see. One person claims that the Holy Spirit told them "God hates fags"

I have never heard that one. Most people who want to use religion to excuse themselves for their behavior will point to the bible, and what happened to homosexuality in the bible.

Another person claims that the Holy Spirit told them to love the sinner but hate the sin. Another person claims that the Holy Spirit told them homosexuality is not a sin.

Also, what you say, and what actually happens are two different things. Since we can't really test the Holy Spirit, there is no way of knowing.

What we teach in our church, is that if you believe the Holy Spirit has told you something, to tell someone else, you can only tell that person, if it is encouraging. And to also use the words "what I believe". I know the Hopy Spirit is talking to me, when I get a message, and relay it to the person, and they confirm it.

Many times, I have preachers try to tell me crap, and then push me over with their words, but I feel nothing, so I ain't going over. They can kiss my ass, and I would tell everyone of what happened.

But I have had people tell me things, that they could not have known about me, and I know the Spirit told them.

My point is, the whole confirmation thing.

Before I knew the Spirit, or felt the Holy Spirit, I did not understand much of what was written in the bible, and instantly afterwards, it became a 1000 times clearer. That confirms what I felt, that is how I know it is the Spirit.

But don't make me tell you again, that it doesn't make me perfect. It is only the start of a life long journey of seeking and learning from God.

There is a big difference from what I think is right, and what God thinks is right.

They all can't be right, so the safest course is to discount all of them. Don't believe anybody who claims their interpretation of the Bible comes from the Holy Spirit. Assess the interpretation on its own merits.

I don't know if you've ever felt the Spirit, but maybe if you did, you would think differently. My wish is for you to feel what I feel, just for a millasecond.

Just don't discount something because it has the Holy Spirit label on it, if you know in your heart that it is true.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by ringo, posted 02-04-2007 2:19 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by ringo, posted 02-05-2007 4:50 PM riVeRraT has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16357
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 171 of 174 (382650)
02-05-2007 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by riVeRraT
02-05-2007 3:43 PM


Re: Possible but not Probable
riVeRraT writes:

My wish is for you to feel what I feel, just for a millasecond.

I've been where you are. I moved on.


Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by riVeRraT, posted 02-05-2007 3:43 PM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by riVeRraT, posted 02-05-2007 11:14 PM ringo has responded

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 28 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 172 of 174 (382769)
02-05-2007 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by ringo
02-05-2007 4:50 PM


Re: Possible but not Probable
Well, that is something I just cant understand at this point in time. I dont know after feeling what I felt, and continue to feel, that if I will ever "move on".

I will always want to do for God, as best as I know how.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by ringo, posted 02-05-2007 4:50 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by ringo, posted 02-05-2007 11:25 PM riVeRraT has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16357
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 173 of 174 (382777)
02-05-2007 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by riVeRraT
02-05-2007 11:14 PM


Re: Possible but not Probable
riVeRraT writes:

I will always want to do for God, as best as I know how.

You don't need to do that standing still - or trapped in a literalist box.


Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by riVeRraT, posted 02-05-2007 11:14 PM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by riVeRraT, posted 02-05-2007 11:33 PM ringo has not yet responded

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 28 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 174 of 174 (382780)
02-05-2007 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by ringo
02-05-2007 11:25 PM


Re: Possible but not Probable
I knew you would sa0y that.
Funny, I dont feel like a literalist. I dont take things word for word.

Any way it was a good discussion, one I wont forget.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by ringo, posted 02-05-2007 11:25 PM ringo has not yet responded

  
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