Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 84 (8914 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 06-18-2019 8:46 PM
23 online now:
DrJones*, Faith, jar, PsychMJC, Sarah Bellum (5 members, 18 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: 4petdinos
Post Volume:
Total: 854,095 Year: 9,131/19,786 Month: 1,553/2,119 Week: 313/576 Day: 116/98 Hour: 8/12


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Karl Rove: Traitor?
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19871
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 34 of 271 (223234)
07-11-2005 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Dead Parrot
07-11-2005 6:13 PM


Re: Mainstream Media Finally Confronts the White House
wouldn't it be interesting if they ran out of people willing to do that job?


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Dead Parrot, posted 07-11-2005 6:13 PM Dead Parrot has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19871
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 36 of 271 (223252)
07-11-2005 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Tal
07-06-2005 10:53 AM


Re: This story is growing legs
which do you think is more heroic:

expose a criminal?

protect a criminal?


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Tal, posted 07-06-2005 10:53 AM Tal has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Tal, posted 07-12-2005 8:25 AM RAZD has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19871
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 65 of 271 (223491)
07-12-2005 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Tal
07-12-2005 8:25 AM


Re: This story is growing legs
you didn't answer the question.

which do you think is more heroic:

expose a criminal?

protect a criminal?

I said nothing about the legality of the persons actions.

But I'll also add to your scenario: protecting a criminal legally is still a crime, which in some cases can be just as bad as the crime itself. Accessory after the fact.

Now answer the question.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Tal, posted 07-12-2005 8:25 AM Tal has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19871
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 103 of 271 (223880)
07-15-2005 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Silent H
07-15-2005 5:05 AM


Re: Tal scores a point... maybe.
You might want to check the wording on the law. I just saw a reference that said that naming the person was not required, just supplying enough information to identify the person: Rove's comment as recorded in the memo does that (if we can trust the memo to accurately reflect the conversation - I find it interesting that no-one has questioned whether Rove said "apparantly" or whether that was inserted by Cooper).

Keep up the battle.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}


This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Silent H, posted 07-15-2005 5:05 AM Silent H has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Silent H, posted 07-15-2005 8:06 AM RAZD has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19871
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 127 of 271 (223998)
07-15-2005 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Silent H
07-15-2005 8:06 AM


Rove backers still firing blanks imho.
To me the speculations that are used to justifiy Rove are ridiculous at this point, more of interest is what will result from the investigations.

Some more info ...It doesn't look good for Karl Rove (click)

Only the special counsel, Patrick Fitzgerald, and his staff have all the facts on their investigation at this point, but there is increasing evidence that Rove (and others) may have violated one or more federal laws. At this time, it would be speculation to predict whether indictments will be forthcoming

There is no solid information that Rove, or anyone else, violated this law designed to protect covert CIA agents. There is, however, evidence suggesting that other laws were violated. In particular, I have in mind the laws invoked by the Bush Justice Department in the relatively minor leak case that it vigorously prosecuted, though it involved information that was not nearly as sensitive as that which Rove provided Matt Cooper (and possibly others).

I am referring to the prosecution and conviction of Jonathan Randel. Randel was a Drug Enforcement Agency analyst, a Ph.D. in history, working in the Atlanta office of the DEA.

While there are other potential violations of the law that may be involved with the Valerie Plame Wilson case, it would be speculation to consider them. But Karl Rove's leak to Matt Cooper is now an established fact.

First, there is Matt Cooper's e-mail record. And Cooper has now confirmed that he has told the grand jury he spoke with Rove. If Rove's leak fails to fall under the statute that was used to prosecute Randel, I do not understand why.

If Rove likes to play games with other peoples lives, then it is time for consequences.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Silent H, posted 07-15-2005 8:06 AM Silent H has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Silent H, posted 07-16-2005 4:03 AM RAZD has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19871
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 176 of 271 (225701)
07-23-2005 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by crashfrog
07-21-2005 4:37 PM


Re: covert and clandestine are not the same
ROFLOL. Just spent the time to catch up on this thread, and it is truly humorous to watch the schwubbyites leaping to defence of their heros.

and what heros they are.

but the news only gets worse for them as time passes:

First we get What Did Bush Know, And When Did He Know It? (click)


Today comes the revelation in The Wall Street Journal that "A key department memo discussing Joseph Wilson's Niger trip was classified 'Top Secret,' and the passage about his wife's CIA role was specially marked 'S/NF' -- not to be shared with any foreign intelligence agencies."

Somehow - nobody knows at the moment - the information in this Top Secret-S/NF document (the identity of Joe Wilson's wife) then migrated from Air Force One to George W. Bush's assiswhitet, Karl Rove, and Dick Cheney's assiswhitet, Scooter Libby. Rove and Libby then immediately began "dialing for dollars" - calling reporters with this juicy bit of Top Secret-N/SF information - in an attempt to politically assassinate Joe Wilson.


and
Conflicting Stories (click)

White House chief political strategist Karl Rove reportedly told the grand jury that he first learned of Valerie Plame's identity from columnist Robert Novak -- but Novak's version of the story is that Rove already knew about her when the two spoke.

Rove didn't mention his conversation with Time magazine reporter Matthew Cooper to investigators at first and then said it was primarily about welfare reform. But Cooper has testified that the topic of welfare reform didn't came up.

Vice President Cheney's chief of staff, I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby apparently told prosecutors he first heard about Plame from NBC's Tim Russert, but Russert has testified that he neither offered nor received information about Plame in his conversation with Libby.

And former White House spokesman Ari Fleischer apparently told prosecutors that he never saw a classified State Department memo that disclosed Plame's identity, but another former official reportedly saw him perusing it on Air Force One.


and now
Bush aide misled FBI, say reports (click)

The investigation into the White House leak of a CIA agent's identity is now focusing on whether two top administration officials provided misleading statements to the FBI, it was reported yesterday.

According to press accounts, Karl Rove, the president's chief political adviser, and Lewis "Scooter" Libby, the vice-president's chief of staff, both provided testimony that was later contradicted by other evidence.

The New York Times yesterday reported that at the time of the leak, Mr Rove and Mr Libby had been collaborating on the administration's response to Mr Wilson's central allegation that President George Bush had misled the American public in his January 2003 State of the Union address.

George Tenet, the director of the CIA at the time, took responsibility for the false claim, helping to draw fire away from the White House, but yesterday's report suggests that Mr Rove and Mr Libby had a role in drafting his public admission.

The news that the two senior officials were intimately involved in the issue added to scepticism about their claims to have initially heard about Ms Plame from journalists, rather than the other way round.


Ya mean they lied to the grand jury???

Anyone still having trouble connecting the dots?

Enjoy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by crashfrog, posted 07-21-2005 4:37 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by arachnophilia, posted 07-23-2005 2:44 PM RAZD has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19871
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 181 of 271 (226035)
07-24-2005 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by berberry
07-24-2005 6:05 PM


Re: Featuring Alberto Gonzales in the role of Rosemary Wood
you mean Chief of Staff Andrew H. Card, Jr.? obviously just a friendly talk, nothing serious eh?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/huffpost/20050724/cm_huffpost/004619/nc:742

... The White House Staff to "preserve all records" etc. Gonzales got permission to do so, but then - again this is Gonzales speaking on Face The Nation - he said he contacted Andrew Card to informally tell him what had happened.

I wish you could have seen Bob Schieffer's face as he came back from commercial break to his next guest, Senator Joe Biden, who he then took up this issue with. Bob Schieffer said to Joe Biden (I'm paraphrasing here...I'll post the transcript when it's available) "You know, everyone in The White House has these BlackBerrys. And you have to wonder what sort of message Andrew Card emailed at 8pm to the other people in The White House...what sort of documents could have been shredded in those 12 hours." There was little Joe Biden needed to add to what Bob Schieffer said.

also from the NY Times article:

PRESIDENT BUSH'S new Supreme Court nominee was a historic first after all: the first to be announced on TV dead center in prime time, smack in the cross hairs of "I Want to Be a Hilton." It was also one of the hastiest court announcements in memory, abruptly sprung a week ahead of the White House's original timetable. The agenda of this rushed showmanship - to change the subject in Washington - could not have been more naked. But the president would have had to nominate Bill Clinton to change this subject.

...

A new Gonzales confirmation process now would have quickly devolved into a neo-Watergate hearing. Mr. Gonzales was in the thick of the Plame investigation, all told, for 16 months.

Thus is Mr. Gonzales's Supreme Court aspiration the first White House casualty of this affair. It won't be the last.

Too bad. Maybe schwubyas pick should have been more controversial?


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}


This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by berberry, posted 07-24-2005 6:05 PM berberry has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19871
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 183 of 271 (226043)
07-24-2005 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Chiroptera
07-24-2005 7:57 PM


Re: Featuring Alberto Gonzales in the role of Rosemary Wood
that doesn't stop them from doing it: Ollie North was caught red-handed shredding Iran-Contra documents, remember?

http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/usa/oliver-north/

"Ollie" is, without question, America's favorite traitor. He helped the Reagan administration commit a bunch of felonies, then destroyed evidence as fast as he could before the Iran-Contra investigation got into full swing. But people just seem to adore the guy anyway, despite his continual lies and total disregard for the U.S. Constitution.

... they convicted him of accepting an illegal gratuity from Secord, in the form of a $13,800 home security system ... Oh, and they also found him guilty of two other felonies: lying to Congress and shredding official documents.

And many feel that Ollie and others 'fell on their swords' for Reagan (to stop his impeachment) ...


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}


This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Chiroptera, posted 07-24-2005 7:57 PM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by jar, posted 07-24-2005 9:18 PM RAZD has not yet responded
 Message 185 by Chiroptera, posted 07-24-2005 9:30 PM RAZD has not yet responded
 Message 188 by berberry, posted 07-24-2005 11:07 PM RAZD has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19871
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 194 of 271 (226325)
07-25-2005 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by berberry
07-24-2005 11:07 PM


Re: Featuring Alberto Gonzales in the role of Rosemary Wood

Condi?

after all she has experience testifying ...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by berberry, posted 07-24-2005 11:07 PM berberry has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by berberry, posted 07-25-2005 9:27 PM RAZD has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019