Must Reads

Hi Folks, I'm new to the forum and am interested in learning about evolution. I am a Christian, and eventually want to find arguments that disprove evolution, but the first step is to learn a bit about the theory.I bought a used copy of "the Origin of Species", and am stating there. I also bought a used copy of Sean Carroll "the Making of the Fittest", which is up-to-date, and I've read good reviews on it.What else would you consider a must for someone learning evolution? Or, am I wasting time with the books I have?Also, which are the best works against evolution?Thanks for any help Edited by InGodITrust, : spelling

You are doing something which makes a lot of sense. Almost all of those who don't like evolution think they can disprove it without knowing a thing about it. Your approach of actually learning about it is the only one that makes sense.Let me see if I can find an existing thread recommending books.ABE (added by edit)I can't find them. You would do well to pick specific threads here too. As you learn more you can try out your ideas for disproving evolution and see if they stand up to critical review.If you are a believer in a young earth you could start by reviewing:
Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1That one has never received any good answers from any YEC yet.Edited by NosyNed, : No reason given.

Another good one is Why Evolution is True by Jerry A. Coyne

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We have many intuitions in our life and the point is that many of these intuitions are wrong. The question is, are we going to test those intuitions?
-Dan Ariely

Hi IGIT, I'm not so new to this particular forum and am interested in learning about christianity. I'm a Promethean (as in I accept the God Prometheus as my personal savior). and eventually want to find arguments that disprove christianity, but the first step is to learn a bit about the religion. I found a free used copy of the bible king james version, and am "stating" there. I also have bought and read several books by writers who claimed to have irrefutable proof of the judeo christian god. What else would you consider a must for someone learning christianity? Or am I wasiting time with the books I have? Also, which are the best works against christianity?Thanks for any help.

Probably this. It's free online, and collects a vast majority of known PRATTs into one document.PRATTs = Points Refuted A Thousand Times.It's utter and absolute crap, in other words, and seems to represent close to the best that the antiscience crowd can muster.

Well that is a refreshing approach at least. Most anti-evolutionists have no idea what it is that they oppose beyond a sort of caricature filled with inaccuracies. I too am reading the Origin of Species for the first time. I find it illuminating with a historical perspective in mind but not an easy read.The other book you mention is not one I know but I will search it out. I don't think you are wasting your time with OotS but it is not the most accessible text and has the serious drawback of being written before any idea of genetics or the genetic evidence for evolution was known. As an argument for natural selection it is pretty exemplary. But things have moved on regarding the mechanism of change (i.e. the "modern synthesis" of evolution by natural selection and genetic mutation).Some books that I have read that may be relevant to your understanding of evolution are:Your Inner Fish - Neil Shubin - An anatomical view from a distinguished paleantologist.Selfish Gene - Richard Dawkins - Say no more.Almost Like a Whale - Steve Jones - An attempt to "rewrite" "Origin of the Species" in a modern genetically knowledgeable context. I find the author's style mildly tedious but in content at least this is probably the most relevant to your question. I have recently concluded that the idea of irreducble complexity was the best attempt by ID (which it should be noted is not necessarily anti-evolution) to be scientifically valid.Unfortunately (if you are a proponent of ID) this has been widely refuted. But Michael Behe is the one to look up for this.If you want pure ant-evolution books (i.e. creationism of some sort rather than Intelligent Design) then your options are very limited. Blatant denial of evidence is a key feature of such arguments so published works are relatively rare.But don't take my word for that (I am admittedly biased). Try to find some genuinely ant-evolution books and if you find any that you find convincing let us know here and we can discuss them.Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

Hi there InGodITrust and welcome to EvC Forum. First, let me say that I very much admire your attitude on this subject. "Know your enemy" is the only attitude that makes sense from a perspective like yours, in my opinion. Why wouldn't creationists want to learn as much about the Theory of Evolution as possible? You have to set them up before you can knock them down, right?I have to echo Stagamancer and recommend Jerry Coyne's Why Evolution is True. He doesn't pull his punches, preferring to say it as he sees it, but if you can bear with it, you will find that it covers most of the basics and provides some of the most compelling evidence for the ToE.Mutate and Survive

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"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

I appreciate your help, everyone. I don't have a ton of time for reading, and I read rather slowly anyway, but I'll probably go with at least one of the titles you've recommended for evolution. (The Origin of Species is very slow going for me, and will probably take me at least a month to finish).I'm suprised there aren't more books that cast doubt on the theory. I don't care if they are labeled Intelligent Design, or Creationism, or whatever. In fact better would be a books by mainstream scientists that have trouble with evolution. I'm getting the idea that these don't exist, and there really aren't any arguments against evolution that the scientific community finds problematic.In the end, if I don't find anything to disprove evolution, I will still have faith in the Lord. I trust science a lot of the time, in most cases. But I always trust in God.

Agreeing that biological science is a scientific reality does not and should not discount your religious beliefs. There are many, many scientists that believe in theistic evolution (belief that God created the diversity of life on Earth through the process of biological evolution and the evolutionary mechanism of natural selection).Though many of us on the EvC board are atheists and agnostics, many of us have no major problem with scientists who believe in God and the idea of theistic evolution (we just don't see any valid and substantial evidence indicating such). My beefs with religion and the Christian faith are personal and are a totally seperate and unrelated topic than that of biological evolution. For me this lack of faith in religion has more to do with the historical and moral inconsistencies with religion. However, my wife, brother and many other relatives and friends are born again Christians some of which do not dispute the evidence for biological evolution and others that do. This does not change the fact that I love them and would give the shirt off my back for them.The big issue in today's society, both in the US and even abroad, is that a small minority of religiously motivated politicians and so-called "scientists" want to hijack our educational system to flood it with pseudoscientific (or what I like to term it, "antiscience") ID and creationist crap and send our education system down the gutter. This is what I and many others on this board will not stand by and let happen. The best way to counter this attrocity is through education and that is why I post on this board. Plus I learn alot from other people on here as well.I wish the best for you in your self-education and my recommendation for you is to challenge everything people tell you, whether religious, scientific or otherwise, with well-documented and researched evidence.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

Hi InGodITrustAs a suggestion I would recommend a book called "The Language of God" by Francis Collins. This is a book that will give you a pro-evolution POV but from a Christian perspective.Francis Collins is an evangelical Christian who headed up the Human Genome Project.Francis Collins - Wikipedia(geneticist)http://www.amazon.com/...ist-Presents-Evidence/dp/0743286391Happy reading

This new found willingness to learn is refreshing.Here are some suggestions. As someone with a scientific bent such as yourself I'd suggest"God's Undertaker - Has Science Buried God" by John Lennox God's UndertakerThen I'd suggest tackling Timmoth Keller's "The Reason for God" Reason for Godand then when you have those under your belt I'd suggest N.T. Wright's "Surprised by Hope". Surprised by HopeThat should give you a good start in your quest for reason and enlightenment. Happy Reading Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Fix 3rd link.

There is no shortage of such books. The most famous are:

• The Fossils Say No! by Duane Gish (young earth creationism)
• The Genesis Flood by Henry Morris (young earth creationism)
• Darwin on Trial by Philip E. Johnson (intelligent design)
• Darwin's Black Box by Michael Behe (intelligent design)

On the web you can go to YouTube and find videos by Kent Hovind, Ken Ham and Ray Comfort, all young earth creationists, and by William Dembski and Stephen C. Meyer, both intelligent design advocates and members of the Discovery Institute, whose website you might also find useful (Discovery Institute | Public policy think tank advancing a culture of purpose, creativity, and innovation.).--Percy

The problem is the lack of effective criticisms of evolution.The real shortage is in papers published in scientific journals that criticize evolution - there aren't any.Books, YouTube videos, and websites are not peer reviewed, and don't have to hold to any standard of truth or competence in the subject matter. Just look at the now-infamous Ray Comfort video that calls the banana "the Atheist's nightmare" because of how well-suited it is to human consumption...and which completely ignores the fact that modern bananas are the result of hundreds or thousands of years of human domestication, and that wild bananas display none of the features Ray mentions. Whether Ray's statements were the result of dishonesty or simple ignorance, they were factually incorrect. Creationist sources tend to have these sorts of problems in abundance - authors find "evidence" that agrees with their pre-existing conclusion (the Bible is literally true), and ignore anything that contradicts that established view, including using "evidence" that simply does not mean what they think it means.So while Percy is correct in pointing out that there are many, many books that cast doubt on the Theory of Evolution, it is also true that none of those books or other sources make an effective criticism. They can always be boiled down to a series of misconceptions, ignorance, and outright dishonesty.If you want to find a real criticism of the Theory of Evolution, you need to be looking at published papers in scientific journals. These are required to maintain a level of accuracy, and the authors are held to a standard of competency in the subject matter. The fact that there are no such papers that reveal inaccuracies in the Theory of Evolution suggests that those who actually know what they're talking about, the people who perform the repeatable experiments, make the direct observations, and hold to objective facts and supported assertions wherever the evidence leads, hold the Theory of Evolution to be an incredibly accurate representation of the mechanisms at work in the real world.

Trust me, it is complete and utter stupidity. Ray Comfort is an ex-surfer from New Zealand with barely a high school level education. He has zero scientific knowledge and has no college education. He literally has no clue what he is talking about.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

DA, you're concerned about Creationism being taught in schools in place of science. Percy, you asked me in another thread if I questioned whether evolution had sufficient concensus among scientists to be taught in schools. I didn't reply in that thread because I had trouble using the software here on the forum; I couldn't figure out how to attacth a quote to my reply.Anyway, I'm not very familiar with Creationism, but if it is true that it is not true science, but religion disguised as science, then I don't want it taught in schools either. Not only would children miss out on learning true science, but it would also violate our principle of separation of church and state. I do think, though, that before any science that conflicts with major religions is taught, the teachers should explain the conflict, and also define a scientific theory. And quiz the kids on the definition of a scientific theory. I think some teachers may just present evolution and the big bang as flat-out, absolute truths.