Racism - A Sanity Check

if you think the european races have all merged into one 'white' conglomeration, you are sorely mistaken and don't pay much attention to people.

And that's never going to happen so long as business owners get to make decisions based on how all the white applicants are inherently more qualified than the black ones.I would be great if we could just say, "Okay, no one be racist". But that isn't going to happen. Unless there are institutional ways to judge and monitor the hiring practices, we're going to see white advantage on the increase and minority disadvantage doing the same thing.It has nothing to do with whether or not minorities are smart enough, or skilled enough, or can compete. In order to "compete" they have to be twice as good, because they have to overcome unequal education, unequal representation, unequal economic status, unequal hiring practices, to name a few.Of course, as has been done at least 50 times on this post, you can say - "Yeah, but this one black guy I know..."No one cares about the individual. You can not make laws about an individual. You have to make laws that address the group as a whole.Yes, discussing blacks and whites as a whole and attributing them characteristics is "racist", just like talking about the poor is "economicist" or talking about the elderly is "agist", but we HAVE TO talk about groups.The people here who are spouting their anti-AA positions keep coming back to the same point. "Oh, I've had it so rough as a white guy in America". Give me a break. Spend a week in South Central, then come back and talk to me about how tough you had it growing up in suburban Connecticutt.(Btw, this post was a reply to brennakimi, however the points expressed are not directed solely at brennakimi's post. I just don't have time to answer everyone before I take off for work.)

you bitch so much about unequal education and yet no one bothers to change the education system. no. the solution is to demand specific hiring practices? what? give me a break.

So that means that I get laid off due to affirmative action while several people get hired? WRONG! That would be a good lawsuit if it ever happened! My company better care about me...I work "twice as hard" for them!Yeah, I had it good growing up. I was not from a poor family. I'll tell you one thing, though. Many of the so called disadvantaged low income families in this city are better able to survive than I am because they are collectivists rather than individualists as I was taught to be. It is patently unfair (and a favorite Union tactic) to threaten companies with discrimination suits whenever you feel that you are not moving up. I, on the other hand, could never file such a suit even if I wanted to do so, but it is I who have to work "twice as hard" in order to keep my place in the company. It is a Union job, but those Union folk never care about us "privileged" individuals...they only care about their liberal equality causes which treat me as a "privileged" outcast while using AA to advance those poor girls who all get pregnant at age 18 and then need to have my job to feed the baby! [/rant]This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-21-2005 11:14 AM

1) Business owners don't always make decisions on who gets hired. Sometimes it is managers and human resources personnel.2) Not all business owners (or other hiring types) are white.3) How is racism going to end by forcing people to hire minorities?AA hiring/recruiting policies were not to end racism itself, but primarily to remove economic disadvantages being pushed on minorities by unfair hiring practices which were pandemic at the time. The question is if these are still worthwhile in all the forms we have them. That's not true. You can make laws regarding the situation, rather than the group. I assume you are talking about me. I didn't say I had it rough as a white guy. I said I had it rough as a poor guy, and in some cases it was compounded when I was rejected from things I needed because of my race. I have seen racism against minorities and have fought it, including in the work place. Thus I have seen that there are issues for minorities as well and do appreciate that.As far as your other piece of tripe. I was poor but did not live in LA. I lived in Chicago. I have lived in full gangland Chicago, with people shot and beaten to death right in front of me by gangs. That would be shot and beaten to death. I would go to sleep to the sound of gunfire just about every night. That was for more than a weekend you pansy.I'm not sure if they have anything worse in S Central, but my guess is NOT.So F you.Oh wait, why did I and my white friends (and one asian) live there? Because we were dirt poor and could only afford a rundown place to live in, in the middle of a really bad neighborhood. That would be just like all the other people there. But to be fair I'm sure we were somehow getting a better deal because we weren't black. Maybe a few less roaches or something?

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

my senior year of high school i was one of three finalists for a scholarship. it wasn't a big one or an important one just walmart, but when i went to the interview and the other two finalists were black i knew i wouldn't get it. why? because it would look better for walmart to give the scholarship to a black girl. fine. good for whichever won. i don't know the qualifications of the other girls so i can't really say; but i still think it is amusing. affirmative action works like this: good kind massah giving the poor black man who doesn't know any better a helping hand. it's degrading. but then what do i know. i'm part of the man.

The thing these doofuses keep doing is assuming I am against all AA initiatives, rather than reading and understanding exactly what I say.I have only had an issue with trying to call it something other than discrimination, that when it is applied to an individual it is only a slight inconvenience, and backed the question of whether all are still relevant.Oh yes, and whether they actually work as promised. Some of the slights I have had would not have been as galling to me if the recipients had been as these true believers state. In most cases I have seen the recipients have not been poor blacks at all, and indeed in some cases were intentionally bigoted against poor blacks.(AbE: But to respond directly to what you said, I do agree that some of these initiatives have background assumptions and mechanisms that appear overtly racist if not in an overtly demeaning way, then in a sterotyping manner. This does not seem to be th best way to look for solutions.)This message has been edited by holmes, 09-21-2005 05:01 PM

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

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The fact is that capitalism is a utopian ideal.

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And that sounds very odd but is actually true. There is no nation that has a 'perfectly' capitalist economic structure, just as no nation has a perfectly Communist structure.This message has been edited by gene90, 09-21-2005 05:58 PM

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Maybe that's because those of us on the Left are independent thinkers and see no reason to simply tow the party line. You sould try it Gene90, thinking for yourslef is kind of nice.

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I see no compelling evidence of independant thought being predominant on either the right or the left, Flies.And I know that both sides accuse the other of being incapable of independant thought.In reality, you've never met me and you know nothing about how I come at decisions. So perhaps you would be best to keep that kind of judgement to yourself?This message has been edited by gene90, 09-21-2005 07:13 PM

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I'm sorry you've had such a terribly hard life as a white man in America. It must be incredibly hard to be you. You deserve every possible advantage and all them dumb ass darkies better just tow the line and pick your

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I am not asking for an advantage, I only want a fair playing field.So do you, the question is how to go about it.At any rate, maybe the perceived need for AA will decline over the next 20 years. O'Conner (SCOTUS) has made comments along that line in some rulings.This message has been edited by gene90, 09-21-2005 06:46 PM

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Nuggin wrote: Yes, affirmative action is a racist policy.

So the solution to unequal treatment on all levels is to remove any efforts to balance things out. Brilliant.

So, you've been fired for only doing 150% of the work of another worker? I doubt it

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So the solution to unequal treatment on all levels is to remove any efforts to balance things out. Brilliant.

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So the solution to racism is to mandate more racism?Brilliant.

Still waiting to hear a solution from you.You keep saying that AA is not the answer to the problem, but if you're so certain it's not the answer, then what is?

Yeah. Just like freeing the slaves was degrading. After all, if they were truly able, they'd have freed themselves.