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Author Topic:   Israel/Lebanon/Gaza conflict (continuation thread)
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 300 (333877)
07-20-2006 11:33 PM


Terrorists To Blame
Jar: "Bullshit Buz. Rank Bullshit.
Of course there are other choices than blowing up ambulances. Hell, even during real War the armies tried to respect Red Cross units."
I see you totally ignored my point that terrorists likely use the emergency equipment to move war supplies et al. Again it is they who are responsible for the hits on these kinds of targets. Civilians have been warned by Israel to get north so there's not suppose to be any there. If Hezbollah uses them as hostages again they are the murderers of innocents, not Israel.
Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by MangyTiger, posted 07-20-2006 11:55 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 7 by jar, posted 07-21-2006 12:52 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 12 by Brian, posted 07-21-2006 4:57 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 13 by crashfrog, posted 07-21-2006 8:09 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 300 (333945)
07-21-2006 11:05 AM


Re: Hitting ambulances
Concerning the amulance matter, likely one or two medical vehicles were hit either accidently or due to suspected missuse and the leftist newspeople put it like it was commonplace to badmouth Israel.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Faith, posted 07-21-2006 11:41 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 18 by crashfrog, posted 07-21-2006 11:42 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 300 (334155)
07-21-2006 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by MangyTiger
07-21-2006 12:17 AM


Re: For buz - why are Hezbollah's fighters cowards?
MT writes:
I'm intrigued on what basis you regard the Hezbollah fighters as cowards (I should point out I don't support Hezbollah's aims or methods, but I think you are wrong in this assessment).
Go figure. Cowards launch their rockets from civilian locations drawing fire to the target. They know that Israel's rockets hone in on the Hezbollah launch sight very accurately. Cowards fire rockets indiscriminately into civilian targets purposely hoping to kill as many as possible. Fortunately they are not accurate but do kill and destroy.
MT writes:
Now you may decry the launching of rockets and/or unguided missiles into Israeli cities but that's irrelevant to the point under discussion. The Israelis have total, 100% air supremacy and have demonstrated their willingness to not only destroy any rocket launcher that fires for more than a short time but also to attack any vehicle that looks even remotely like it might be carrying rockets while it is on the road.
That's incorrect. Israelli rockets hone in on the locations from which a ketusia rocket has been fired. They do not guess or fire indiscriminately into civilians as do the Hezbollah terrorist cowards.
MT writes:
This means any Hezbollah fighter who is operating a rocket lanucher or moving it from place to place is at serious risk of being blown up by an air strike that they have no defence against. If they were cowards they wouldn't have anybody firing the rockets.
In many cases they fire from vehicles and run.
MT writes:
As for fighting the IDF - again it's David against Goliath except this time Israel is Goliath. Hezbollah has no tanks, no self propelled guns, no heavy artillery (I haven't heard of them using anything bigger than mortars), no air support of any sort and is, at the end of the day, just a militia.
Well then they should not have started this war in which they knew they would have to fight like cowards against defenseless civilians.
MT writes:
So I have to ask again, on what basis do you describe them as cowards? Isn't this just an example of demonising your enemy?
I heard it on one of the Fox News segments but not sure which one.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by MangyTiger, posted 07-21-2006 12:17 AM MangyTiger has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Faith, posted 07-21-2006 11:09 PM Buzsaw has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 300 (334161)
07-21-2006 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by MangyTiger
07-20-2006 11:50 PM


Re: buzsaw's latest view on the conflict
MT writes:
Speaking of Isreal warning the inhabitants to leave, I suppose you're ok with the events at Marwaheen where the Isrealis warned the inhabitants they had hours to leave and then when a convy of families tried to leave they were butchered by an Israeli air strike.
Let's be very clear about the chain of events here:
The Israelis tell the inhabitants of a village they have hours to leave
The civilians obey the warning to get out
As civilians leave a village where the Israelis told them they had to get out they are attacked by an Israeli aircraft
Is it ok to order people to flee their homes and then slaughter them when they obey your order buz? Do you think maybe adjectives like ruthless or cowardly are applicable?
Even if this was a cock up rather than a deliberate act (I regard both as plausible explanations) Israel doesn't come out of this any better.
This from the International Tribune (Middle East paper). According to Israel, their rocket targeted this convoy because a katusia rocket had been fired from it, indicative of what I've been saying all along that the Hezbollah terrorists purposely draw fire to civilian targets not only to protect themselves but to get international sympathy for their terrorism. As usual the Western liberal press establishment didn't give the Israeli side of the story.
They were in a moving convoy and the EVIL COWARDS knew full well that by the time the responding missile came in they would be safely ahead of the civilians hit for the sole purpose of drawing international sympathy for their cause.
link writes:
A Lebanese civilian convoy was hit near the coastal town of Tyre after fleeing the border village of Marwaheen, resulting in 16 deaths. The Israeli military said the area was a target because Hezbollah had used it to launch missiles, and regretted any civilian casualties.
Not Found - The New York Times - 44k

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by MangyTiger, posted 07-20-2006 11:50 PM MangyTiger has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by MangyTiger, posted 07-22-2006 12:11 AM Buzsaw has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 300 (334162)
07-21-2006 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Faith
07-21-2006 11:09 PM


Re: Not cowards so much as sociopaths & criminals
I have to differ here, madear. Imo anyone who targets defenseless civilians is a coward no matter how you cut it.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Faith, posted 07-21-2006 11:09 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by DrJones*, posted 07-21-2006 11:13 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 300 (334180)
07-22-2006 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by DrJones*
07-21-2006 11:26 PM


Re: Not cowards so much as sociopaths & criminals
Evidently you did not read my message 22 and the link to it stating that the Israeli rocket targeted the convoy because a missile had been fired from it. I said:
They were in a moving convoy and the EVIL COWARDS knew full well that by the time the responding missile came in they would be safely ahead of the civilians hit for the sole purpose of drawing international sympathy for their cause.
Get it? The sinister cowards purposely positioned themselves in a moving convoy of refugees, firing a rocket from the moving convoy of innocent refugees fleeing the war zone, knowing full well that in a moving convoy after they fired the rocket from their vehicle an Israeli response would come in exactly at the point that their's was fired from. By the time the Israeli rocket came in the sinister cowards would be well out of range of the incoming missle and that it would surely hit whichever vehicles loaded with civilians in the convoy happened to be at that spot by the time the responding rocket came in. Imo, this is the epitimy of cowardice and evil. This, of course was to embitter the world against Israel. As per usual the Western liberal press failed to tell the Israeli story. I had to go to a Mid East and North Africa news source to get it.
link writes:
A Lebanese civilian convoy was hit near the coastal town of Tyre after fleeing the border village of Marwaheen, resulting in 16 deaths. The Israeli military said the area was a target because Hezbollah had used it to launch missiles, (embolding mine) and regretted any civilian casualties.
Not Found - The New York Times - 44k

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by DrJones*, posted 07-21-2006 11:26 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by DrJones*, posted 07-22-2006 12:22 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 34 by Modulous, posted 07-22-2006 2:31 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 300 (334182)
07-22-2006 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by MangyTiger
07-22-2006 12:11 AM


Re: buzsaw's latest view on the conflict
MT writes:
Your claim that a Katyusha was fired from the convoy is shown by your own source to be complete unmitigated bullshit and I trust you will now retract it unreservedly.
You better study up on the Israelli missile tech, MT. Ny understanding is that they are capable of and do pinpoint the very spot from which the enemy missile was fired from and if so, that spot had to be the convoy. Correct me if I'm mistaken. I will be off to church tomorrow (Sabbath) and Lord willing able to do more responding tomorrow PM.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by MangyTiger, posted 07-22-2006 12:11 AM MangyTiger has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by MangyTiger, posted 07-22-2006 1:28 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 42 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 07-22-2006 10:12 AM Buzsaw has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 300 (334191)
07-22-2006 12:53 AM


Re: Hezbollah's tactics
Btw, Hezbollah does fire many of these rockets from vehicles. Likely the ambulance hit was a similar situation in heavy moving traffic. The terrorist missile would launch and the incoming missile response would hit whatever happless vehicle happened to be at the spot by the time the responding missile came in. Hezbollah terrorists have absolutely no regard for civilian casualties so long as it advances their evil agenda, to turn the world against Israel and the US and advance Islamic global conquest as per the Quran, the Haddith and the Saunas. This all, of course, in the name of their god, Allah.
Israeli's who fire the responding missiles, of course are not aware of whether the Ketusyahs were fired from an open field, a moving vehicle, a home or what. They can't just stop responding and let the enemy do all the damage. THEY MUST WIN OR ALL DIE as per the Islamic nations working to destroy them.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 300 (334230)
07-22-2006 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by MangyTiger
07-22-2006 1:28 AM


Re: buzsaw's latest view on the conflict
MT writes:
I further pointed out to you that you can't fire Katyushas from a moving vehicle. Even the videos released by the Israeli military confirm this - every one shows a stationary launcher being hit.
All they would need do is stop the vehicle long enough to fire and move on.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by MangyTiger, posted 07-22-2006 1:28 AM MangyTiger has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Brian, posted 07-22-2006 9:07 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 45 by MangyTiger, posted 07-22-2006 11:13 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 300 (334233)
07-22-2006 9:06 AM


Mangy, I also pointed out that Israel does not know from where the rocket was fired. Only the responding missle will seek that out and it had to be the spot from where the terrorist missile came. Right? Heading out to church now. All I want is the truth and to arrive at that we debate it out, so don't loose your cool. If you show me to be in error in the end, I'll admit it.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by MangyTiger, posted 07-22-2006 12:02 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 47 by jar, posted 07-22-2006 12:39 PM Buzsaw has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 300 (334306)
07-22-2006 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by jar
07-22-2006 12:39 PM


Re: on return fire.
Buzsaw writes:
Mangy, I also pointed out that Israel does not know from where the rocket was fired.
jar writes:
That is a very damning indictment of Israel if true.
No. It's indicative that like Hezbollah, Israelis are limited intelligent immortals. The difference is that Israel has hi tech which both detects the area of enemy fire beyond human vision and hi tech pin point ability to respond to the attack, pinpointing the exact lauch position with responding rockets.
Buzsaw writes:
Only the responding missle will seek that out and it had to be the spot from where the terrorist missile came. Right?
jar writes:
No buz, that is not true.
This thread topic is a continuation of whether Israel is committing atrocities. I don't see a brief explanation of your position as off topic to this topic since it has to do with whether Israel's action is to be considered as an atrocity. So briefly, do or do not Israel's rockets have the ability to seek and pinpoint enemy launch targets? If not, please provide documenting support for your claim.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by jar, posted 07-22-2006 12:39 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by DrJones*, posted 07-22-2006 5:10 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 57 by jar, posted 07-22-2006 6:45 PM Buzsaw has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 300 (334314)
07-22-2006 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by MangyTiger
07-22-2006 12:02 PM


MT writes:
Fair enough buz - I apologise if I've come across as losing my cool.
Let's get back to basics on this.
Can you provide any evidence that the attack on the convoy was as a result of a specific rocket launch?
How many times do I need to post this evidence and explain Israeli hi tech which pinpoints within the target area the exact launch spot? Before you acknowledge or refute it, Mangy, this debate is going nowhere. Please go back and reread me carefully, refuting any specifics with specifics you may have for refutation.
Buz link writes:
A Lebanese civilian convoy was hit near the coastal town of Tyre after fleeing the border village of Marwaheen, resulting in 16 deaths. The Israeli military said the area was a target because Hezbollah had used it to launch missiles, (embolding mine) and regretted any civilian casualties.
Not Found - The New York Times.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by MangyTiger, posted 07-22-2006 12:02 PM MangyTiger has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by MangyTiger, posted 07-23-2006 8:01 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 300 (334339)
07-22-2006 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by DrJones*
07-22-2006 5:10 PM


Re: on return fire.
What I'm going by is retired colonels and generals whom Fox News frequently interviews; folks who should know. They have on occasion noted the difference in the hi tech rockets of Israel and of Hezbollah's relatively primitive rockets. They say stuff like Hezbollah launches the attack and runs like hell before the Israeli response comes back.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by DrJones*, posted 07-22-2006 5:10 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by DrJones*, posted 07-22-2006 6:27 PM Buzsaw has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 300 (334347)
07-22-2006 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
07-22-2006 10:12 AM


Re: buzsaw's latest view on the conflict
SNC writes:
Buz, as someone who has at times made it a bit of a hobby to study military hardware I can tell that mangytiger is 100% correct.
Those older russian ballistic rockets just can't be fired on the move. They take a decent amount of time to set up and can only be fired from a stationary position.
The katayusha is an old design...... I believe it was originally used (at least in some form) in WW2
According to Fox's mitilary experts there was a time when this was true but they have been upgraded to be launched from motor vehicles. Anyone who's followed the news fairly closely has seen rocket launchers on pickup trucks et al on occasion in less advanced militias. Perhaps the katayusha requires a heavier motorized vehicle like a ton or ton and a half outfit. I'm not sure.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 07-22-2006 10:12 AM SuperNintendo Chalmers has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by jar, posted 07-22-2006 6:49 PM Buzsaw has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 300 (334359)
07-22-2006 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by DrJones*
07-22-2006 6:27 PM


Re: on return fire.
1. The launchers flee the launch site as soon as their rocket is launched as the newsmen and military experts are reporting, but I concede that until I can come up with more substantial evidence, I may be overstating that the rocket is smart enough to pinpoint the exact spot from which the rocked was launched within a given area.
2. Our missile tech is shared with Israel to a great extent. Our pilots allegedly can direct a rocket into any given window of any structure according to newscasts but that's not quite the same.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by DrJones*, posted 07-22-2006 6:27 PM DrJones* has not replied

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