evidence for conservative Christian influence on US government

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Well that sure is a mature outlook. But yes, you should have identified that it was a section of protestants and not the entirety of protestants.What I don't get is how you consider them less Bible Believing. You could say they have a different interpretation, and perhaps that their interpretation has been mistaken for some reason. I mean that's what they claim about protestants who believe the Bible allows for murder... uh, execution. But they certainly do believe the Bible.Indeed its all bit of hypocrisy on your own part to be slamming them so hard. The Xians split with the jews due to differences in some interpretations/beliefs regarding scripture and God. Then the Catholics rose up as the prime force in Xianity, after which Protestants split because of their differences with interpretations/beliefs. And of course Protestants have splintered into countless denominations based on verying interpretations/beliefs.There is hardly a large body of Xians that do believe in a singular interpretation. Perhaps you can share what denomination you are and how it holds the absolutely correct interpretation? I see, two wrongs make a right. I'll remember that. I didn't claim they were or are the standard. I was just reminding you that you are not the measure of a true scotsman. Really? Almost the entirety of Europe has been without a death penalty for some time. They have been pretty orderly. Heck, they have less crime that us.Sounds like someone else's reason might have slipped their leash. Oh by the way, this is coming from someone who supports the death penalty. Your argument is a bunch of garbage.Many religious types feel that they do not need to resort to mundane and evil violence because their God will protect them from it. And if they do get hurt then it is the will of God. It's called Faith.Despite what you claim, the New Testament is not filled with Jesus extolling the virtues of violence in order to create a more ordered society. If you remember his specific words were to turn the other cheek. He did not go on to say if struck again, turn that MF into mincemeat.When faced with violence against himself, if you remember your Bible, he did not struggle or allow for any violence to occur against the very people come to kill him. He even healed some damage that one of his disciples inflicted on a soldier.The earliest Xians were generally "prolife" in the strictest sense. If you remember your history they were punished severely for their beliefs and did not put up violent struggle. Some of the disciples met the same fate as Jesus.Now if you want to claim that Jesus, YHWH, and his disciples were all nonXians that had no idea what they were talking about while preaching and writing, well I leave that up to you and the other denominations to fight it out.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Wow! I read this article and even I am scared!

Let us not forget that America is run by cotton-wool charlatans whom fully ignore the Lord's Instruction. These false christians claim to follow the tenets of the Lord God, yet they sinfully disregard His Blessed Word. They are happy to see the murderers put to death, but they are silent on the fates of the prostitutes (Deuteronomy 22:4), homosexuals (Leviticus 20:13) and false prophets (Deuteronomy 13:5).

Why don't we simply call the two groups "pro-legalized abortion" and "anti-legalized abortion"?

Well, right.Please tell me you are going to stop believing what Dobson and Robertson are trying to sell you.They are dangerous to America.

They're multisyllabic and don't manage to somehow sneak in a "motherhood" type issue like "life" or "choice". I'd be willing too accept your suggestion but the majority of Americans may not be willing to quite yet.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Pro- and Anti-Abortion is what many pro-lifers would prefer I think, as being more sharply to the point, but pro-life based on "choose life" is considered to illuminate the true meaning of "choice" as in choosing murder.

Dobson and Robertson uphold what America was up until the last half century. They may not do the best job of it but they are the best we've got at the moment. You seem to think what is dangerous to America is being traditional American. Somehow what America is has been redefined over the last half century.

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Pro- and Anti-Abortion is what many pro-lifers would prefer I think, as being more sharply to the point, but pro-life based on "choose life" is considered to illuminate the true meaning of "choice" as in choosing murder.

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No, I wrote "pro-legalized abortion" or "anti-legalized abortion".I have never, ever once heard any pro-legalized abortion person speak of abortion as if it is a good thing.My terms highlight the real issue, which is the issue of who has the right to make medical and life descisions regarding a woman's reproductive destiny; an individual woman or the government?If you are against abortion, then don't have one.

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Dobson and Robertson uphold what America was up until the last half century.

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Really?Would Jefferson and Paine have agreed with their wanting to impose their religious views upon the entire country.Please read my sig.

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"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."--Thomas JeffersonThere is no greater threat to civil liberties than an efficient government. -jar

I'm sorry but those guys have been the ones trying to redefine America over the last half century.The founders were clearly against the likes of Robertson and his intentions for gov't. It was not really until after the taming of the West that we began to see gov't in the form of what you are discussing, and that was not Traditional, that was Progressive in every way.It was socialism pure and simple, and not economic socialism, but having the gov't micromanage morality in people's personal lives. This continued to grow throughout victorian times, and then vacillated between traditional (free) and progressive (socialist-moralist) for decades right up through the 1970s. Since then we have been pretty much stuck in a "progressive" moralist climate and NOT traditional hands off America. No, that's what they think is dangerous. They tout as "traditional" almost exclusively laws and iconography from the late 1870's through the 1950's... but that isn't traditional at all. And like I said the 70's through the 50's were not all of one flavour, but varied so there was hardly a "tradition" which lasted long during any of it.If you cannot handle the idea of a secular gov't wholly absent of "faith based" programs, and little micromanagement of people's lives, then you are not Traditional.Robertson is not traditional.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This is an unfortunate falsehood. All the Christian activism in the last half century has been an attempt to answer the encroachment of anti-American political thinking which has been taking over. Unfortunately the Christians woke up a bit late. America is no longer what America was meant to be and you have bought into the revisionist view like so many others. I don't think the current Christian position is a perfect representation but it is at least an attempt at an answer to something that has perverted the very foundations of the idea of America, perverted the idea of freedoms, perverted the idea of equality. Your view of the intentions of the founders is a sad revisionism that leads you to hate what they really meant to be.This message has been edited by Faith, 06-02-2005 10:51 AM

Faith, what about my sig?

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"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."--Thomas JeffersonThere is no greater threat to civil liberties than an efficient government. -jar

This is what has really been going on: