Hurricanes defying conventional science.

I did some more studying of my thermo... The 64.9 degrees was assuming an 85% relative humidity and an air temperature of 70 degrees. If the relative humidity is near 100%, which it would be in a hurricane, and the air temperature is near 70 degrees and the water temperature is also 70 degrees, no energy can be added to the storm. Even if the air temperature and relative humidity were lower, the cooling effect of evaporation would quickly cool the 70 degree water to the saturation temperature preventing it from adding hardly any energy at all. Plus you have to remember that hurricanes are constantly losing massive amounts of energy in rainfall, so even if the water is barely warm enough to add energy, this is not enough to balance the energy that is constantly being lost.Thus the typical requirement of 80 degree plus water to a considerable depth is understandable.So what Randman and all the meteorologists say is true, with the given information and the laws of physics, the hurricane should have lost a lot of energy over the 70 degree water.

It actually doesn't matter since we're dealing only with the partial vapor pressure, which can be pinned down with the relative humidity and the air temperature. I just wrote standard atmosphere, cuz that's what the example problem said, and that pressure was used to determine other things.Relative humidity equals the partial vapor pressure divided by the saturation pressure at the given temperature.Once you find the vapor pressure, you can find the saturation temperature or dew point. If the water temperature is above the dew point, then water evaporates sucking energy out of the water into the atmosphere. If the water temperature is at or below the saturation temperature, water condenses and energy is sucked out of the atmosphere.If the water temperature were 80 degrees and the air temperature were 70, much energy would be added. In this case, the water temperature is about the same is the air temp, so little to none should be added.

Dr Steve Lyons would disagree with the premise of this thread. Read his rather matter of fact description, in terms of known physical laws and previous incidents here

Maybe I should have said that differently: with the given information and looking only at the laws of physics that pertain to energy being added from the water, the hurricane shouldn't have strengthened. I'm sure there's probably other atmospheric factors that I'm not aware of that could on rare occasions cause a hurricane to strengthen even over cold water.

these storms are mild anomalies. the only reason it was thought that hurricanes couldn't go into the southern hemispere is because there are no winds arounf the equator. it's the same reason you can't sail there without the assistance of oars. it's a stupid reason really since hurricanes crease wind, they don't feed on it. oh blah blah the coriolis effect. if you bring a toilet up from austrailia, it will still flush. south america still experiences gravity. it's the southern hemisphere, not the twighlight zone. thus hurricanes should have no problem.i'd like to bring up a point. science undergoes evolution of it's own. as we learn more, we change our predictions. this is no great mystery. sailors still use ptolemaic models to check their instruments when they're out at sea. yep. that's the one where everything revolves around the earth and planets have epicycles. crazy stuff.we calculate things according to our observations. when observations change, we recalculate them. we are excited when things don't work out right because it means we get to learn something new... unlike some people who flip out and exclaim 'the devil did it!!'this may bring a revolution in meteorology, but it is not a harbinger of cataclysm. and if jesus is returning, you're not going to speed it along by talking about it. he says he will only come when no one is expecting it.genius.

It may not be a harbinger of more cataclycism, but I do wonder if some of this is influenced by weather engineering programs, i.e. unconventional science. 2 years ago, there was a guy, Phd in physics, a former Colonel in the Air Force or some such, that claimed we would see a lot of messing around in this area. Now, some of his claims seemed to make sense, but he also had some pretty far out stuff as well, and I can't judge the data in terms of the details for storms.But some signs he said to look for did start showing up. I am still not convinced, but I am paying more attention now.This message has been edited by randman, 12-06-2005 11:21 AM

*sigh*ok let me explain cold to you.atoms possess energy and wiggle around a lot depending on how much energy they possess. the keyboard you're typing on? not so solid as you think.want proof? fill up a balloon a little way with water and put it inside a balloon filled with air. set it up on a bowl or something so the bottom (where the water baloon is resting) is suspended. the water balloon will eventually move through the air balloon. i did it once. it took like a month or two and the air balloon deflated more and more as the air escaped with the water balloon.anyways.
cold water is not really cold as you state. until atoms reach absolute zero, they mover around. cold is defined in a relative way depending on personal preference. heh.
anyways. as long as water possesses energy, it is possible to transfer this energy to another object, like a hurricane. hurricanes are low pressure systems, something like a weak vaccum. they suck. hehe. they attract energy like crazy. thus, it would follow that they can in fact gain energy from 'cold' water.our predictions of hurricanes are based on statistical data. we watched a lot of hurricanes and recorded information about them and decided what was likely to happen and what we imagined was possible based purely on past experience. this is not a fixed absolute of what will happen, it's a method of prediction. the only reason we study hurricanes is because they have this nasty habit of killing and breaking stuff. we don't like our stuff broken or killed so we try to figure out where they're going to hit and how hard. that's it. that's all we care about. and that is not really a good strong basis for theory. but alas, it's what we got.haha i now have five minutes to leave for work. ubershower.

You are missing the point. Obviously, the hurricanes are indeed obeying physical laws or they could not occur. I think you are downplaying how odd and unexpected these 2 storms are, but obviously they happened. So now, they are officially possible, but very rare.On the side topic of weather engineering, the idea is not that these guys violate known physical laws, but that the process can be manipulated, even to create in real-time the farthest range of possibilities for storms. It's something people probably laugh at, but our government, other governments, and some terrorist groups have been working for decades to do stuff like this. It's just totally off-the-shelf in terms of secrecy.The evidence that shows that the idea is not tinfoil hat thinking is we have treaties on record banning the use of this technology for weather weapons systems, and we have Defense Sec Cohen in the late 1990s flat out stating terrorists were trying to trigger earthquakes and storms using electro-magnetic waves from remote locations, and that "it is real." A guy of that stature does not warn senators and defense industry specialists of something that is cuckoo.So that got my attention, and I have noticed some things, but at the same time, I am not sold. Could be something else? Certainly, we are back in the more active cycle.

what are you talking about?

---

i'm worldwide bitch, act like ya'll don't know.

if i'm missing the point it is because you have consistently avoided making any in this thread. you keep half saying stuff and it's getting under everyone's skin. you can tell us half of what you mean and then yell at us for not understanding you and brushing you off. it's rude and dishonest.but really hon. weather machines are completely science fiction. the best we can do is cloud seeding and that doesn't really work that well.if you look at conditions this year, i'm sure you'll find a perfectly reasonable explanation. for instance. usually in south florida we have clear, hot junes and starting in mid july until mid september we have clockwork 2:30-3:00 pm EVERYDAY severe thunderstorms.
this year, we had morning storms in june and no thunderstorms in july or august. occasionally we'd have an overnight storm but not the usual afternoon ones.track that down. understand what was going on this year and then make deductions.

Man... why is everyone so damn arrogant and sassy on this board nowadays? The point is: there have been a lot of "rare" hurricanes this year. When you get a lot of data that is outside the statistical norm, you begin to consider that either your previous estimates of the norm were off or that some change has occurred to change the mean or variance.This means that either there's something new that science can discover, or someone has been messing with the weather. Either case would prove to be very exciting. You're all just in a permanent pissy mood. That's all. History shows that people who say a thing isn't possible are usually wrong. Now really... you think the science of weather modification hasn't made any progress in FOUR DECADES after tons of money and research and secret government programs around the world have been at it? You're sure becuase you've already assumed so. What kind of scientist are you? honestly....

That's not necessarily true... see there's this other thing called entropy. Because of entropy certain natural processes can only happen in one direction.For example: if you set a cup of 120 degree coffee in a 70 degree room for 5 minutes the coffee will NOT receive energy from the room, but will give energy to the air in the room lowering its temperature.When considering evaporation... the temperature of the water must be above the dew point of the atmosphere in order to add energy.

i'm not a scientist, smartass. but it doesn't take one to figure out that nature moves in cycles and sometimes there are record-breaking years. that's why we have records. if everything happened exactly the same all the time, we wouldn't study it, would we?
i'm simply very observant of the weather THAT'S ACTUALLY HAPPENING. cause guess what. all you have to do is understand simple physics and look outside. magic.i'm not saying weather machine's can't happen, i'm just saying they aren't. must be an african conspiracy against the us neh? that's where they all come from. please.there's only been one "rare" hurricane this year. the rest were quite ordinary. katrina was exactly like another hurricane that hit that area (camilla i think). the only thing even remotely spectacular about wilma is that she hit florida from the west coast... but then so did charlie last year.

yes, yes. but my point is that to make some blanket statement that it's impossible for storms to gain energy from water below 70 degrees is foolish. besides. it's fairly obvious that the storm didn't actually build on this "cold" water, rather just wiggled a little. but, for the sake of argument, it is possible.

---

i'm worldwide bitch, act like ya'll don't know.

Good, then I can disregard all of your statments as ignorant opinion. Haha... well shoot, I guess we all ought to throw statistics out the window and just listen to you to tell us if something unusual is occuring based on your simple physics and observations from the back porch.Sooorry.. I know... man... its amazing how fast arrogant sassiness infected me too... I'mna have to quit this.