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Author Topic:   The Case Against the Existence of God
nwr
Member
Posts: 6410
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 134 of 301 (301995)
04-07-2006 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by robinrohan
04-05-2006 8:19 AM


Crisis of non-Faith
Is robinrohan having a crisis of non-Faith

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 Message 1 by robinrohan, posted 04-05-2006 8:19 AM robinrohan has not replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6410
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 136 of 301 (301998)
04-07-2006 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by robinrohan
04-07-2006 12:18 PM


Re: What is pretend about living?
A subjective belief is one that has no logical basis.
A belief is inherently subjective.
What it says can be objective, but that it is believed is subjective. Perhaps you are thinking of "proposition" rather than "belief".

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 Message 133 by robinrohan, posted 04-07-2006 12:18 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by robinrohan, posted 04-07-2006 12:27 PM nwr has replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6410
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 151 of 301 (302040)
04-07-2006 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by robinrohan
04-07-2006 12:27 PM


Re: What is pretend about living?
A belief is inherently subjective.
What's your definition of belief?
I don't have a definition. "Belief" is a term from folk psychology. It isn't well defined. It makes for a poor scientific concept. To a first approximation, a belief is an emotional committment to a statement (the semantic content of the statement, not the syntax).
Can't I say, "I believe in the theory of evolution" and be using the word correctly?
Sure. The theory of evolution is objective. Whether or not you believe it is subjective.

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 Message 138 by robinrohan, posted 04-07-2006 12:27 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by robinrohan, posted 04-07-2006 2:56 PM nwr has replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6410
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 257 of 301 (302267)
04-08-2006 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by robinrohan
04-07-2006 2:56 PM


Re: What is pretend about living?
To a first approximation, a belief is an emotional committment to a statement (the semantic content of the statement, not the syntax).
I've never used it like that. I just use it to mean that if somebody is convinced that something is true, he believes it.
I don't see a difference. Isn't "is convinced that" the same thing as "has a committment to"? Maybe you don't like my use of "emotional", but I see emotions as important in our cognitive judgements. A computer has no emotions, but a computer is never convinced of any statement -- a trivial programming change will cause it to assert the opposite.

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6410
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 273 of 301 (302414)
04-08-2006 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by robinrohan
04-08-2006 1:03 PM


Re: Summary comments
..., we have no ultimate ground for logic either.
As happens with many words, the term "logic" can have multiple meanings. Sometime it is used as synonymous with "reasoning" or "thinking". This makes it subjective, since it is the mental activity of a subject. Others use the term to mean the mechanistic following of fixed rules of inference, and we can treat that as an objective meaning.
NWR makes this to-do about the word "belief"--says it's always emotional. I just mean by "belief" the idea of being convinced by some proposition. Unlike NWR, apparently, I think it is possible to reason objectively--no doubt another naive idea of mine.
You are reading too much into this.
I am attempting to account for why people can have beliefs, while it is generally agreed that computers cannot have beliefs.
Reasoning is done by a subject, so in inherently subjective. However a reasoner (as a subject) can follow objective principles of reasoning. When you use the expression "objective reasoning", are you intending that to single out the principles followed in the reasoning (which can be objective), or are you intending to single out that there is a reasoner (a subject)? Okay, that was a rhetorical question, so no need to answer.
I think you are seeing a profound disagreement between us, when it is more likely that I am trying harder to avoid ambiguity by being careful in my use of terminology.

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 Message 271 by robinrohan, posted 04-08-2006 1:03 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by Faith, posted 04-08-2006 4:39 PM nwr has replied
 Message 280 by robinrohan, posted 04-08-2006 5:43 PM nwr has not replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6410
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 281 of 301 (302512)
04-08-2006 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by Faith
04-08-2006 4:39 PM


Re: Summary comments
Reasoning is done by a subject, so in inherently subjective.
This is false NWR. All reasoning is done by a subject, but some reasoning is objective because ...
Let's restore the full context.
nwr writes:
Reasoning is done by a subject, so in inherently subjective. However a reasoner (as a subject) can follow objective principles of reasoning.
Our disagreement is really about what we mean by "reasoning". You are using the sense in my second sentence (the publically expressible steps taken), while I am using it as the mental activity of the reasoner.
In journalism, back when people still believed in objectivity, ...
The best journalists still believe in, and practice, objectivity.

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 Message 276 by Faith, posted 04-08-2006 4:39 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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