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Author Topic:   The Case Against the Existence of God
Larni
Member
Posts: 3976
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 5 of 301 (301434)
04-06-2006 4:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by robinrohan
04-05-2006 8:19 AM


I think yout premise is flawed:

I do not start with the conclusion that god is real and then logically challenge that position. I have encountered no evidence from which I could infer that the reality of god is a valid point to start from.

I did not 'become an atheist' any more than I became somebody who does not believe in Father Christmas.


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Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by riVeRraT, posted 04-06-2006 7:46 AM Larni has responded
 Message 37 by Phat, posted 04-06-2006 1:32 PM Larni has responded
 Message 38 by Chiroptera, posted 04-06-2006 1:45 PM Larni has responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3976
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 71 of 301 (301824)
04-07-2006 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by riVeRraT
04-06-2006 7:46 AM


Well since you seem to know about the existance of God, do you ever wonder?
-riVeRaT

To be correct; I know about the existance of the belief in god. I have no knowledge of it's existance.

That is the fundemental issue.

If I had a decent reason to believe in a god, you bet I would! Eternal life for living by a few common sense rules? Easy.

Give me any reason to believe in any god and I will.


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Larni
Member
Posts: 3976
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 72 of 301 (301825)
04-07-2006 4:12 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Tusko
04-06-2006 8:17 AM


You nailed it there mate. I concur.

The massive amount of gods through history just goes to show that we beleived in such things long before christianity and will beleive in them long into the future.

Ed: DVD extras

This message has been edited by Larni, 04-07-2006 04:15 AM


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Larni
Member
Posts: 3976
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 73 of 301 (301827)
04-07-2006 4:20 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by robinrohan
04-06-2006 11:44 AM


There's lots of things that we can't see that are real. You must have some better reason for dismissing the idea with contempt.

Such as what?


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 Message 76 by robinrohan, posted 04-07-2006 4:33 AM Larni has responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3976
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 77 of 301 (301832)
04-07-2006 4:35 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Phat
04-06-2006 1:32 PM


Re: A Legend in our minds or a Reality outside them?
But is not hat the point? You start from a position that there is a god. Growing up you must have had information telling you that god is real. You chose on the balance of that information to move from the default condition of no belief in god to the position of belief in god.

That is why I find the premise here to be flawed. We are not born with a belief in gods. There are no letter in fire across the sky that would provide evidence of god.

If the most people on the planet were killed and a new culture arose would the exact inerant words of the bible become known anew? Of course not.

People believe in god because they get taught about it. You could natuaralistically rediscover the LOTs but you could not do that for 10 commandments.


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Larni
Member
Posts: 3976
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 79 of 301 (301834)
04-07-2006 4:48 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by robinrohan
04-07-2006 4:33 AM


Come on, you can do better than that. We can measure gravity. Gravity has pretty solid rules.
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Larni
Member
Posts: 3976
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 80 of 301 (301836)
04-07-2006 4:50 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Chiroptera
04-06-2006 1:45 PM


I totally agree. The burnden of proof in on the believer.
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Larni
Member
Posts: 3976
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 83 of 301 (301839)
04-07-2006 4:59 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by robinrohan
04-07-2006 4:50 AM


By 'see' I assumed you meant sense, detect or have some way of knowing that something has registered on our perceptual system that would allows us to recognise the fact that there is something there to acknowledge.

However, we can see gravity in the way it bends light around mass. In a similar way that we can see a plank of wood in the way it reflects light back at us.

Anthing else other than gravity?


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Larni
Member
Posts: 3976
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 86 of 301 (301842)
04-07-2006 5:14 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by robinrohan
04-07-2006 4:53 AM


robin writes:

The burden of proof is even--50/50.

What is the /50 that is evidence for a god?

As I said, give me a shread of evidence for a god and by crikey I will believe in it.


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Replies to this message:
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Larni
Member
Posts: 3976
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 88 of 301 (301844)
04-07-2006 5:25 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by robinrohan
04-07-2006 5:02 AM


robin writes:

We can not see gravity. We cannot see space-time,we cannot see "energy"--whatever that is. We cannot see "curved space" (another word for gravity, I hear). We cannot see thoughts.

Of course we can see energy. Light I contend counts as energy. We only 'see' via the gift of light interacting with matter and energy.

'Seeing' is a form of perception that our biology has evolved. Things that we cannot see with our biological apparatus can be detected via the gift of technology. I can't detect radio spectrum like I can the visible spectrum but technology tells me it's there.

I can't 'sse' alpha radiation but a dose meter can detect it.

I cant't 'see' thoughts but the electrical impulses of nerves can be detected by technology or ampullae of Lorenzini in some fish.

We can't detect god at all. It may as well not be there.


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 Message 84 by robinrohan, posted 04-07-2006 5:02 AM robinrohan has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by robinrohan, posted 04-07-2006 5:29 AM Larni has responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3976
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 90 of 301 (301847)
04-07-2006 5:33 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by robinrohan
04-07-2006 5:16 AM


Give me one shred of evidence for the existance of god and before this forum I will renounce my stance on the the xian god.

The burden of proof is on you.

The default position of every human being on this planet is of having no (zero) knowledge about any god.

This position is changed via the gift of information gained as one grows up.

One then makes a value judgement as the verasity of said information.

One either changes from the default position of not believing in any god to: (based on the percieved verasity of evidence) believing in a god, or (based on the percieved verastiy of evidence) not changing from the default position.

People don't get converted without having met missionaries.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by robinrohan, posted 04-07-2006 5:16 AM robinrohan has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by robinrohan, posted 04-07-2006 5:39 AM Larni has responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3976
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 93 of 301 (301851)
04-07-2006 5:39 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by robinrohan
04-07-2006 5:29 AM


Robin writes:

Yes, but the original point was about seeing, not detecting. Dan says, I look around, don't see Him, and therefore He doesn't exist. He didn't saying anything about "detecting" Him. His answer was frivolous.

Point taken.

I believe however Dan may have meant 'detect' in the wider sense.

If he did not I concede the point about 'seeing'.

My point about 'detecting' still holds.


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Larni
Member
Posts: 3976
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 94 of 301 (301852)
04-07-2006 5:45 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by robinrohan
04-07-2006 5:39 AM


I think you are conflating the nature of the universe and the nature of a god. I do not see these as being the only 2 choices at all.

However my knowledge of cosmolgy tops out at M-brane theory so I can't really follow you down this avenue of inquery for the existance of a god.

I would argue that your two choices are both wrong, but I would need a lot more time to get credible information to challenge it. Maybe on another thread?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by robinrohan, posted 04-07-2006 5:39 AM robinrohan has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by robinrohan, posted 04-07-2006 5:53 AM Larni has responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3976
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 95 of 301 (301853)
04-07-2006 5:52 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by iano
04-07-2006 5:37 AM


iano writes:

Does the fact that he doesn't require you to live by any rules at all

I thought you went to hell if you did things like masturbation and murder?

iano writes:

What God wants is that you want him,

That is one of the issues that I have. You tell me god wants this and someone else would say god wants that. Talking to any one who beleives in xian god conjours up very different gods.

iano writes:

Reason for belief: God as he is, who would persist in offering you such a gift

I have no evidence of such an offer and all of my 'detection' systems or sense work perfectly.


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 Message 91 by iano, posted 04-07-2006 5:37 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by iano, posted 04-07-2006 9:14 AM Larni has responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3976
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 97 of 301 (301869)
04-07-2006 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by robinrohan
04-07-2006 5:53 AM


If I admit that there is no evidence against there being a god. Will you admit that there is no evidence for a god?
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 Message 96 by robinrohan, posted 04-07-2006 5:53 AM robinrohan has not yet responded

  
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