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Author Topic:   Iraq needed Saddam?
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3810
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001


Message 46 of 133 (730114)
06-23-2014 8:56 PM


Glenn Beck: Liberals were right about Iraq
I got to this page, but the story is at a lot of other pages also.

quote:
On his radio show on Tuesday, conservative sky-is-falling paranoid Glenn Beck admitted that liberals were right about it being a bad idea to invade Iraq.

Beck’s comments came on the heels of the news that Iraq is falling apart at the seams while Al-Qaeda-backed insurgents take over major cities in the north, and march on Baghadad. And while liberals are reticent about getting back into the same costly war we just got out of, Republicans like Dick Cheney are just itching to jump back in.


quote:
Glenn Beck writes:

Maybe we could come together now on this nightmare in Iraq. From the beginning, most people on the left were against going into Iraq. I wasn’t. At the time I believed that the United States was under threat from Saddam Hussein. I really truly believed that Saddam Hussein was funding terrorists. We knew that. He was funding the terrorists in Hamas. We knew that he was giving money. We could track that. We knew he hated us. We knew that without a shadow of a doubt. It wasn’t much or a stretch to believe that he would fund a terror strike against us, especially since he would say that. So I took him at his word.

There were also atrocities that were happening in Iraq torture chambers, mass graves. At the time, the unanimous belief – even with Hillary Clinton and everybody else – was that he had weapon of mass destruction. There was also the element – and this is really what spoke to me – of bringing freedom to the people of Iraq for the first time in their long history. I don’t want to control Iraq, but I have a soft spot for people who are being tortured and just want freedom because I really, truly believe Democrats and Republicans are the same. Israelis and Palestinians are the same. Once you get the politicians to leave the room, once you can deprogram people from what the politicians and leaders have said, everyone is pretty much the same. It’s like, ‘I just want to be left alone.’ ‘I just want to raise my family, have fun.’ ‘I want a decent life.’ Then politicians get involved and program us to hate each other. You have to be carefully taught who to hate.

Now, in spite of the things I felt at the time when we went into war, liberals said: We shouldn’t get involved. We shouldn’t nation-build. And there was no indication the people of Iraq had the will to be free. I thought that was insulting at the time. Everybody wants to be free. They said we couldn’t force freedom on people. Let me lead with my mistakes. You are right. Liberals, you were right. We shouldn’t have….

But I agree with you: You cannot force democracy on the Iraqis or anybody else. It doesn’t work. They don’t understand it or even really want it. They may be too immersed in their own belief of Sharia Law to embrace liberty or at least at this time. If people vote for Sharia Law, they vote for Sharia Law. We tried. What can we do? We have lost thousands of American lives. We have lost thousands of lives on the Iraqi side and tens of thousands have been wounded. We have spent $2 trillion – say that again – $2 trillion, and upwards of 200,000 Iraqi citizens, aid workers, insurgents have been killed. That’s the conservative number. Liberals will tell you it’s almost 1 million people. I don’t know what the number is, but after all of that, hundreds of thousands of lives, $2 trillion, the best minds in the world trying to do it, it’s about to fall apart.


Above bolding as at source.

When Glenn Beck is the voice of sanity of the conservative movement...

Moose


Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.

"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith

"Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien

"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose


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Faith
Member
Posts: 35107
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 47 of 133 (730125)
06-23-2014 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Minnemooseus
06-23-2014 8:56 PM


Re: Glenn Beck: Liberals were right about Iraq
I didn't have a clear opinion about the Iraq war but I did think it was futile to expect people who believe in Shariah law to know what to do with democracy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Minnemooseus, posted 06-23-2014 8:56 PM Minnemooseus has acknowledged this reply

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3810
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001


(1)
Message 48 of 133 (730129)
06-24-2014 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Minnemooseus
06-23-2014 8:56 PM


The evcforum Iraq micro-poll in January 2003
I should have mentioned this in my previous message:

Poll: Should U.S. etc. go to war against Iraq

It only went 14 messages.

Percy said at message 3:

Percy writes:

As far as I'm concerned, when we march into Iraq it had better damn well be because the weapons inspections have turned up incontrovertible evidence of significant caches of weapons of mass destruction. Keeping a military force in the Gulf is very expensive, but that doesn't justify this apparent rush to war. I couldn't bring myself to vote for either presidential candidate in the last election, but if Bush starts this war with insufficient provocation then I'll have to give his opponent serious consideration in the next election.

The big danger we face is enlarging the population is displaced Moslems with a grudge against the US. As wrong as the 9/11 terrorists were, the lesson for us is to work at become less hated around the world. That doesn't mean not hunting down Al Queda, but it definitely means not doing what Bush seems to be doing now.

Moose


Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.

"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith

"Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien

"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose


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nwr
Member
Posts: 5593
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 49 of 133 (730132)
06-24-2014 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Minnemooseus
06-24-2014 12:36 AM


Re: The evcforum Iraq micro-poll in January 2003
I didn't join evcforum until 2005, so I didn't vote.

If I had voted, it would have been an unequivocal no. I had been saying that to my friends.

My main reason, was that I expected such a war to become another quagmire, somewhat like Vietnam.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 13789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 50 of 133 (730263)
06-26-2014 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by nwr
06-24-2014 1:23 AM


Re: The evcforum Iraq micro-poll in January 2003
nwr writes:

If I had voted, it would have been an unequivocal no. I had been saying that to my friends.

My main reason, was that I expected such a war to become another quagmire, somewhat like Vietnam.

Me too. In retrospect, it almost seems like the main reason for that war was to provide two trillion worth of business to arms merchants and to test weapons.

"They" would deny it, of course.


“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—nothing more nor less.”

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nwr
Member
Posts: 5593
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 51 of 133 (730264)
06-26-2014 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Phat
06-26-2014 9:32 AM


Re: The evcforum Iraq micro-poll in January 2003
In retrospect, it almost seems like the main reason for that war was to provide two trillion worth of business to arms merchants and to test weapons.

I guess I'm a cynic. I've been assuming all along that Bush and Cheney wanted to get their hands on Iraq's oil.

It was already clear in Dec 2001 (I think it was the "axis of evil" speech), that Bush intended to use 9/11 as a pretext for invading Iraq.

I'm coming to realize that the "con" part of "neo-con" is because to whole thing is a con game.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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dronestar
Member (Idle past 790 days)
Posts: 1379
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 52 of 133 (730292)
06-26-2014 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by nwr
06-26-2014 10:06 AM


Re: The evcforum Iraq micro-poll in January 2003
nwr writes:

It was already clear in Dec 2001

It was clear WAY before Dec 2001:

‪Project for the New American Century‬ was established in 1997. Members of evil included "Jeb" Bush, William Kristol, and Charles Krauthammer.

quote:
On January 16, 1998, following perceived Iraqi unwillingness to co-operate with UN weapons inspections, members of the PNAC, including Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, and Robert Zoellick drafted an open letter to President Bill Clinton, posted on its website, urging President Clinton to remove Saddam Hussein from power using U.S. diplomatic, political, and military power. The signers argue that Saddam would pose a threat to the United States, its Middle East allies, and oil resources in the region, if he succeeded in maintaining what they asserted was a stockpile of Weapons of Mass Destruction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/...ject_for_the_New_American_Century


After the election of Bush Jr. in 2000, some of PNAC's members or signatories were appointed to key positions within the President's administration such as: Dick Cheney, Elliott Abrams, I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, Rumsfeld, and Wolfowitz.

They all prayed for another horrific "Pearl Harbor" event against america so they could capitalize on their long-desired plans such as CONTROL of the world's energy sources. Their prayers were joyfully answered with the thousands of deaths of americans on 9/11.

---

In other completely compartmentalized news, Bush Jr. is back above 50%:

quote:
Clinton, Elder Bush Most Positively Rated Living Presidents, June 20, 2014

http://www.gallup.com/...tively-rated-living-presidents.aspx


Ain't it great that americans have high regards for sociopaths?

USA! USA!! USA!!!


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Phat
Member
Posts: 13789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 53 of 133 (869919)
01-08-2020 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Minnemooseus
02-24-2007 11:13 PM


A Timely Old Topic 13 Years Hence
Moose writes:

While Saddam definitely was excessive and criminal in his actions, wasn't he actually a stabilizing force in the Middle East?

I personally suspect that a more moderate, but perhaps still rather ruthless version of Saddam is what Iraq needed and needs. What is going to be put into place, that will work better? I have no idea.

And, of course, there is always the ugly question of to what degree the United States were significant contributors to Saddam's excesses? Remember that photo of buddy-buddy Saddam and Donald Rumsfeld(?)

Moose writes:

I'm not denying that Saddam was a very bad person. The question is, does Iraq need a "bad" (but not "very bad") person in order to function? Is Iraq now looking at decades of civil war, perhaps until a neo-Saddam finally takes charge?

In light of recent events, it seems to me that Moose's old topic is again quite timely.

Archer Opteryx writes:

Surely you realize this is still terribly vague. For this question to make enough sense for anyone to discuss it in a practical way, more clarity is required about the kind of regime you propose. Specifically, what do you mean by 'bad, but not very bad'? What do you mean by 'function'?

Omnivorous writes:

The Shiites are the majority in Iraq as in Iran--most other Middle Eastern nations have different demographics. Democracy in Iraq means Shiite rule, a prescription for ethnic revenge and a regime that supports terrorism and revolution in the name of "radical" Islam.

The GOP has always portrayed itself as the pragmatic, realpolitik party, but the geopolitical ignorance and arrogance of the U.S. invasion was monumental. We have sacrificed thousands of American lives, shattered tens of thousands of others, and caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, while at the same time alienating most of the world's Muslims, backhanding most of our allies, and strengthening the regimes most opposed to our interests. The likely result of "democracy" in Iraq will be a horror show of sectarian bloodletting and the destabilization of other Sunni-dominated states such as Saudi Arabia.

That guy that Trump killed--Soleimani and that other Iraqi guy...were they the authority in Iraq? If so, we seem to have shot ourselves in the foot--again.

Percy,in another topic writes:

The US and the world are not a safer place after Soleimani's assassination. Americans are being warned to leave Iraq and the surrounding region. More troops are being sent to the Middle East. Homeland Security has been placed on higher alert. Our cyber targets are being warned to expect increased attacks. Security is being stepped up at our embassies around the world, as well as for our senior military officials. Our navy is stepping up its alertness in the Persian Gulf. Great Britain has just dispatched two destroyers to the region to protect British shipping.

Soleimani was responsible for many deaths, including Americans. He required our careful and continuous attention. But Trump's assassination of Soleimani will cause a greater number of American deaths and place an increased number of American lives at risk.


Comments?

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
"You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Minnemooseus, posted 02-24-2007 11:13 PM Minnemooseus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by jar, posted 01-08-2020 5:40 PM Phat has responded
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jar
Member
Posts: 32352
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


(1)
Message 54 of 133 (869924)
01-08-2020 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Phat
01-08-2020 3:53 PM


Re: A Timely Old Topic 13 Years Hence
Another topic I believe is essential was the one from 2006 on why the Islamic World might be annoyed with us. It is at So let's look at why the Islamic world might be annoyed by the West?. Our sins will come due and the bill will get paid.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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 Message 53 by Phat, posted 01-08-2020 3:53 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Phat, posted 01-10-2020 11:38 AM jar has responded

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3810
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001


Message 55 of 133 (869944)
01-09-2020 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Phat
01-08-2020 3:53 PM


Re: A Timely Old Topic 13 Years Hence
That guy that Trump killed--Soleimani and that other Iraqi guy...were they the authority in Iraq? If so, we seem to have shot ourselves in the foot--again.

They were Iranians, but the killings were done in Iraq.

Moose


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Phat
Member
Posts: 13789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 56 of 133 (869986)
01-10-2020 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by jar
01-08-2020 5:40 PM


Why the Islamic world might be annoyed by the West?.
jar writes:

Another topic I believe is essential was the one from 2006 on why the Islamic World might be annoyed with us. It is at So let's look at why the Islamic world might be annoyed by the West?. Our sins will come due and the bill will get paid.

I will examine your topic next.

One aspect of old threads being revisited that intrigues me is reading the (dated) responses from many of our intelligent members. jar has always insisted that one needs to understand politics from a historical perspective, a task which I have little time to pursue. Perhaps if someone were to point out a useful book or two it would help, but to be honest I don't really care about it all. My goal is no to bring about a global consensus. The reason, among others, is that I and my "group" of likeminded regional inhabitants may actually lose ground in such a deal. Flipping this attitude, I can see why many other global regional populations may well feel the same way. Perhaps they are tired of the Western mindset that uses them rather than including them as equals with the Western populations. It really does get rather complex.

I did notice that many of the older comments in this thread brang up issues that are current affairs in the world today. Some examples:

Chioptera in 2007 writes:

I do agree that a lot of the problems of the third world do stem as a legacy of colonialism, and the old "divide and conquer" tactics of exacerbating (or even creating) tribal rivalries is a part of the problem. But another major problem is that democracy in the developing world (and the result that the resources of each developing nation would be used to benefit the people of that nation, not the Western economies) runs counter to the interests of the West. As a result, either stability is deliberately thwarted by Western policies, or it is the inadvertent result of political and economic policies forced onto the developing nations.

As true now as it was then.
Omni in 2007 writes:

It seems likely that only an authoritarian regime could hold Iraq together--the Brits and the French drew the current lines which contain the Shiites, Sunnis, and Kurds--groups so mutually repelling that removing Sadam was like loosing nuclear bonds.
The predictable outcome of toppling Saddam--effective tripartite civil war--was both predictable and predicted. The neoconservatives assured us that we'd be welcomed as liberators by the "Iraqis"--an entity that has no real existence.

The Shiites are the majority in Iraq as in Iran--most other Middle Eastern nations have different demographics. Democracy in Iraq means Shiite rule, a prescription for ethnic revenge and a regime that supports terrorism and revolution in the name of "radical" Islam.

The GOP has always portrayed itself as the pragmatic, realpolitik party, but the geopolitical ignorance and arrogance of the U.S. invasion was monumental. We have sacrificed thousands of American lives, shattered tens of thousands of others, and caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, while at the same time alienating most of the world's Muslims, backhanding most of our allies, and strengthening the regimes most opposed to our interests. The likely result of "democracy" in Iraq will be a horror show of sectarian bloodletting and the destabilization of other Sunni-dominated states such as Saudi Arabia.

It reminds me of the WWII cartoon with two weary GIs: "Well, we liberated the hell outta that town." Ruins smoke and crumble in the background. Or the real Vietnam military spokesman 30 years later: "We had to destroy the village in order to save it."

I always believed that in all honesty, we did not want the people of Iraq to make a peaceful nation IF it was not going to give us (The U.S.) access to the oil. Lately, our troops and western contractors were getting attacked. This Iranian strongman had to be eliminated, and only Trump had the guts (or stupidity) to do it. That makes him a hero among Western Capitalist interests, but a villain to our ever hopeful Leftist Globalists who want all people to have an equal opportunity. Reality shows me that this dream won't happen. In the interests of our own pocketbooks, we won't allow it.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
"You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle


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 Message 54 by jar, posted 01-08-2020 5:40 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by jar, posted 01-10-2020 12:47 PM Phat has responded
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jar
Member
Posts: 32352
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 57 of 133 (869992)
01-10-2020 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Phat
01-10-2020 11:38 AM


Re: Why the Islamic world might be annoyed by the West?.
Phat writes:

In the interests of our own pocketbooks, we won't allow it.

Other Nations have felt the same as you in their past; Egypt and Assyria, Carthage and then Rome, the Ottoman Empire; the Dutch and French and even Great Britain.

What does the evidence show Phat?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 13789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 58 of 133 (869995)
01-10-2020 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by jar
01-10-2020 12:47 PM


Re: Why the Islamic world might be annoyed by the West?.
They fell. What complicates matters now are two things. We will always have the power to prevent anyone from possessing our land, and the world is interconnected and global now. One nation does not simply fall without "help" from others. If they refuse to help us, it may trigger a major war. Not that we are not seemingly causing such incendiary events ourselves anyway. The chickens will come home to roost and the bill will get paid. But in a globally connected economy, EVERYONE will end up paying off the bill.

Now regarding your old topic:

Modulous writes:

Manchester has a lot of Muslims living in it, and I used to live in one of the most famous Muslim gathering places in the UK. The small minority of extremists that I encountered would hearken back to the defeat of Constantinople (1453). For reasons that are not anti-Islamic in nature, it ranks highly on my non-existant list of historical events that I would change if I could.
Anyway, the height of the Ottoman empire was not for another couple of centuries when (and it surprises many to learn it) it stretched as far as Austria. This culminated in the 1683 battle of Vienna which the Turks lost (nobody messes with the Hapsburgs!), and this was the start of the (slow) decline of the Ottoman Empire. The Turks didn't just give up and go home, and the battle for Austria continued. However, just over a decade later they were forced to sign the Treaty of Karlowitz which meant they lost Hungary, and some of eastern Europe (Transylvania included...actually it's my interest in Translyvanian history that provides me with the indirect interest in the Ottoman empire) to the Austrians.

This strengthened the Hapsburgs massively meaning the Ottoman Empire would have difficulty regaining any kind of hold on Europe again. The Hapsburg's influence of course was felt with the assasination of the heir apparant which lead to WWI which I'm coming to

Before we get there though we should consider the 18th Century. I find it very boring, but the upshot is that the Turks lost even more power to the Russians after a sequence of wars. The Russians became the next big concern for Europe. The UK was trying to keep the Ottoman Empire stable at this time to maintain some kind of balance of power. Without them, Russia would be unstoppable. Having the port city of Constantinople and total access to the Black Sea would not be good.

This takes us to the more interesting 19th Century and Napoleon. With Napoleon taking sides with Russia against everyone else, things were looking bad, but Napolean made the mistake that Hitler was to replicate. He invaded Russia and lost shortly afterwards.

The Great Powers took sides with Greece in her quest for independence from the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman's didn't take kindly but after a quick war with Russia had to let Greece go. More squabbling leading up to the Crimean War which ended badly for the Ottomans; basically the real end to the Empire it might argued (at least as a significant power).

After this came WWI; the general era that jar wishes to discuss.


I have some questions regarding this whole historic prelude up until now.
I mentioned globalism, a position that conservative critics charged Obama with supporting and which the good guy/dictator Trump seeks to implode or at least separate the US from(which makes no sense in the event we ourselves implode, for we would then need to lean on globalism)--

  • Do the Western Powers still think that they can arrogantly push around these emerging cultures such as Iran/Iraq/Syria? Seems obvious that both Russia(historically seeking a stable warm water port) and China have allied themselves with Iran. Then we have this whole question about Trump's relation with Vladamir Putin. I suspect that in light of modern reality, it is the wealthy businessmen of the West who would actually sell their own people down the river in the interests of preserving the wealth. Trump mentioned spending trillions of dollars in new equipment in a Mideast conflict if necessary. Are we so stupid as to allow that so that the major arms stocks rise and we build still more equipment at the risk of imploding our own national debt and hoisting the bill upon the western middle class? That truly would be evil--a betrayal by our own wealthy oligarchs. And Putin and Trump might even agree on that one..

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
    "~Thugpreacha

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
    "You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 57 by jar, posted 01-10-2020 12:47 PM jar has responded

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 13789
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 59 of 133 (869997)
    01-10-2020 3:06 PM
    Reply to: Message 56 by Phat
    01-10-2020 11:38 AM


    Re: Why the Islamic world might be annoyed by the West?.
    Omni in 2007 writes:

    The Shiites are the majority in Iraq as in Iran--most other Middle Eastern nations have different demographics. Democracy in Iraq means Shiite rule, a prescription for ethnic revenge and a regime that supports terrorism and revolution in the name of "radical" Islam.

    Could it be that we purposefully provoked Radical Islam in order to have someone to blame?

    One could argue that those people do indeed need to grow up and quit that religious garbage. If they expect to participate in a modern world, that is. Of course you likely will turn it around on me and say the same thing about US Christian Nationalism. Difference being we need it to guard our wealth while they need Islam to guard their culture and prevent getting swallowed up by global Capitalism. If they have Democracy and Capitalism, they probably want their own brand and not be forced to feed ours.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
    "~Thugpreacha

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
    "You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 56 by Phat, posted 01-10-2020 11:38 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 13789
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 60 of 133 (869998)
    01-10-2020 3:24 PM
    Reply to: Message 57 by jar
    01-10-2020 12:47 PM


    Re: Why the Islamic world might be annoyed by the West?.
    Modulous writes:

    There is a difference between a resource that is shared by several countries being cut off by one country, (rather) than a resource that belongs to one country which decides to limit selling that resource to its advantage.

    Western powers may argue that a lot of the infrastructure of the oilfields was installed by our contractors with our money. Thus, that oil is not nor ever should be simply Irans or iraqs to do with what they want. What if they decided to sell only to China, for example? We have a stake in that resource and feel we always should, I think.
    Iano. in 2006 writes:

    This question of 'ownership' is spurious. Ownership is what the world system is prepared to put up with for the sake of peace and quiet. You own a lake but don't own a river: arbitary lines in the sand.

    This is about lessons to be learned. And there is a clear historical one. Don't grab tigers by the tail


    jar, in 2006 writes:

    You have made your point totally clear, and the Islamic world has heard. If the West determines they want something, they have the power to take it and consider it their right.
    Thank you for making it clear that might makes right.

    Isn't it still that way? If Trump wants to make America great again, we need to be prepared not to surrender the stakes we have in the Middle East. We spent several trillion dollars in wars there, and we won't simply walk away and give it over to Iran and Iraq to sell to China.
    jar writes:

    The next issue that needs to be looked at is the Sykes-Picot Agreement. It was the result of secret negotiations between France and Great Britain where they agrred to divide up the Middle East into spheres of influence. There were four basic areas, one of Direct and Full control to each of the two Great Powers, and one each where the Great Powers would be the sole influence.
    The Middle east and it's resources were thus divided up to be exploited by France and Great Britain, with a slight nod to Italy.

    You can read about the Sykes-Picot Agreement here and more here.

    The agreement was to be kept secret, with due notification to the governments of other Great Powers such as Russia and Japan but was not meant to be generally published. As to the claims of Italy, they are addressed in a single sentence:

    I would also venture to remind your excellency that the conclusion of the present agreement raises, for practical consideration, the question of claims of Italy to a share in any partition or rearrangement of turkey in Asia, as formulated in article 9 of the agreement of the 26th April 1915, between Italy and the allies.
    OK, so what? Again, we are not simply going to let go of what we have spent over a hundred years securing.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
    "~Thugpreacha

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
    "You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 57 by jar, posted 01-10-2020 12:47 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 63 by jar, posted 01-10-2020 3:36 PM Phat has responded

      
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