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Author Topic:   Iraq needed Saddam?
Phat
Member
Posts: 14338
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 106 of 133 (870439)
01-19-2020 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by jar
01-19-2020 3:43 PM


Re: Enemies vs Competitors
jar writes:

What happened to Czechoslovakia? Why did it happen? How is Czechoslovakia similar to Iraq?

What happened to Yugoslavia? Why did it happen? How is Yugoslavia similar to Iraq?

I poked around and found what seems to be a credible news story on the matter:
Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia: Division and disintegration.

quote:
Both Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia were created in 1918, after World War I collapse of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. The objective was similar in both cases: to unite different-but-similar peoples in common, independent states.

Of the 14 million people, 7 million were Czechs, 2.5 million Slovaks and more than 3 million Sudeten Germans. There were also large minorities of Hungarians, Ukrainians, Poles, and Roma.
Although the rights of minorities were guaranteed in the formation of the state, the Czechs tended to assert their dominance in economic and cultural matters.

Though it began similarly, Yugoslavia took a different path to disintegration. Here, too, the basic idea was to unite several related peoples and their traditional settlements in one state. The equal rights of all constitutive peoples were proclaimed in this asymmetric construction of a state, and rights were guaranteed to minorities.

OK, I'm still trying to get at the root of what went wrong. After all, in the SouthWest, America is a successful melting pot. In California, there are many ethnic groups that seem to get along under one government. Also NYC. Does the division have anything to do with a dominant majority who wants to hog all the money and resources?

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
"You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by jar, posted 01-19-2020 3:43 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by jar, posted 01-19-2020 4:12 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32741
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 107 of 133 (870440)
01-19-2020 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Phat
01-19-2020 4:01 PM


Re: Enemies vs Competitors
Phat writes:

Does the division have anything to do with a dominant majority who wants to hog all the money and resources?

What about power? In those cases does only one group hold all the power and control?

Now look at the US. Do we currently see minorities in the US who feel they are denied access to money, resources, power, security, a voice? What steps do we at least try to take towards responding to their issues?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Phat, posted 01-19-2020 4:01 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Phat, posted 01-20-2020 12:27 PM jar has responded
 Message 110 by Phat, posted 01-20-2020 12:36 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14338
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 108 of 133 (870460)
01-20-2020 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by jar
01-19-2020 4:12 PM


Re: Enemies vs Competitors
jar writes:

Do we currently see minorities in the US who feel they are denied access to money, resources, power, security, a voice? What steps do we at least try to take towards responding to their issues?

Progress is being made, but the core of these issues fuels what I see as a global war of ideology and ideologies. Who qualifies as a minority? Some would argue that we all are a minority of one. Which lives matter? Only black? Only Kurd? Only Poor? What if a wealthy man becomes disabled? Should he be prevented from claiming social security? How about a poor family of illegal migrants? Do they not have a right to medical care? There are lots of questions and lots of points of view.

Let's take one that I once experienced. Bankruptcy. You brought up the idea that if I had a right to do it, so should everyone...which was a valid point. And in actuality, they do...with the provision that one must be a citizen and an active taxpayer with all of their paperwork ordered and timely. The courts don't simply let anybody do it, however. Nor should a hospital simply open its doors and allow blank checks for anyone who comes there for help. There are standards. There must be. Rules of law cannot simply be drawn up by the old white guys, or the Czechs, or the Sunnis or Iran or the United States.

One of the criticisms of Obama was that he was weak---too eager to find consensus with the global community at national expense. Which then brings up the question of what rights a nation should have among other nations. Does Might make Right or should it be Right making (consensual) Might?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
"You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by jar, posted 01-19-2020 4:12 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by jar, posted 01-20-2020 12:30 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32741
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 109 of 133 (870462)
01-20-2020 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Phat
01-20-2020 12:27 PM


Re: Enemies vs Competitors
Sheesh...just sheesh Phat.

You have simply totally lost all connection with the topic once again. Why do you always run off into nonsense land?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Phat, posted 01-20-2020 12:27 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Phat, posted 01-20-2020 12:40 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14338
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 110 of 133 (870463)
01-20-2020 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by jar
01-19-2020 4:12 PM


Re: Enemies vs Competitors
jar writes:

What about power? In those cases does only one group hold all the power and control?

The evidence shows that one group has always held the majority of power and control--the top 10% wealth wise. As much as I consider this a bit unfair, I would be hesitant to level the playing field too much. I can say I'm all for taxing the rich to pay the bill, but they have lobbyists and lawyers and the means to live elsewhere, so that battle is futile. And I'm also against ringos vision which he claims is Jesus's message that we all should give all we have to raise the level for the global poor.

You will likely (and correctly) point out that I am looking out only for myself.

Is this not human nature? Do Kurd's lookout for Sunnis, Shites, or Kurds?
Do Indians lookout for white people? Did Russel Means ever indicate so?
Do populists feel targeted by a growing global rabble seeking to reverse 1000 years of "white privilege"? And yet the wealthiest people still call most of the shots. Am I better off letting them do it or am I better off letting the Kum Ba Yah Democratic voice attempt to make things more equitable and kind? Sometimes i feel the fear that the Populists feel---that I would get left out of a global consensus.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
"You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by jar, posted 01-19-2020 4:12 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by jar, posted 01-20-2020 12:41 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14338
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 111 of 133 (870464)
01-20-2020 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by jar
01-20-2020 12:30 PM


Re: Enemies vs Competitors
jar writes:

You have simply totally lost all connection with the topic once again.

Not really. Some argue that Saddam brought stability through overbearing dominance. Try and make a fair coalition out of it all and look at what happens? And this gets back to your question of how Iraq is similar to Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia. I'm simply waxing philosophical and pondering human nature in general---which may be a bit off-topic but which has valid application to the topic.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
"You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle


This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by jar, posted 01-20-2020 12:30 PM jar has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32741
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 112 of 133 (870465)
01-20-2020 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Phat
01-20-2020 12:36 PM


Re: Enemies vs Competitors
Phat writes:

You will likely (and correctly) point out that I am looking out only for myself.

Is this not human nature? Do Kurd's lookout for Sunnis, Shites, or Kurds?

Still totally missing the issue.

Now look at what I quoted and then look at Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia and Iraq.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Phat, posted 01-20-2020 12:36 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Phat, posted 01-20-2020 12:44 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14338
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 113 of 133 (870466)
01-20-2020 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by jar
01-20-2020 12:41 PM


Re: Enemies vs Competitors
On a simple level, I think that the US wants Iraq to become democratic(as in friendly trading partner) and yet not aligned with Iran. God forbid the Iraqis choose to sever ties with the US.

We yearn for simpler times, such as what happened with Japan. They became a friendly competitor and yet a viable and profitable trading partner. Islam complicates things. We prefer Democracy first, Islam second.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
"You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle


This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by jar, posted 01-20-2020 12:41 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by PaulK, posted 01-20-2020 12:52 PM Phat has responded
 Message 115 by jar, posted 01-20-2020 1:03 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 125 by ringo, posted 01-21-2020 10:53 AM Phat has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16480
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 114 of 133 (870467)
01-20-2020 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Phat
01-20-2020 12:44 PM


Re: Enemies vs Competitors
quote:
We yearn for simpler times, such as what happened with Japan. They became a friendly competitor and yet a viable and profitable trading partner. Islam complicates things. We prefer Democracy first, Islam second.

The US has not been a great fan of democracy in the past, and that is a part of the problems in the region. Remember Operation Ajax?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Phat, posted 01-20-2020 12:44 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Phat, posted 01-20-2020 1:08 PM PaulK has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32741
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 115 of 133 (870468)
01-20-2020 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Phat
01-20-2020 12:44 PM


Re: Enemies vs Competitors
Phat writes:

On a simple level, I think that the US wants Iraq to become democratic(as in friendly trading partner) and yet not aligned with Iran. God forbid the Iraqis choose to sever ties with the US.

You are still just masturbating Phat.

Democracy is totally irrelevant and has absolutely nothing to do with reality. As long as people like you continue to deal in irrelevancies and just jerk off there really is little hope.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Phat, posted 01-20-2020 12:44 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14338
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 116 of 133 (870469)
01-20-2020 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by PaulK
01-20-2020 12:52 PM


Re: Enemies vs Competitors
Good article. I'm always learning stuff here that jar thinks I *should* have learned 40 years ago.
Wiki writes:

hroughout the 19th century, Iran was caught between two advancing imperial powers, Russia and Britain. In 1892, the British diplomat George Curzon described Iran as "pieces on a chessboard upon which is being played out a game for the dominion of the world."[33]

And its still that way. Capitalism is fine as long as the people being exploited are the "others". The dnger of capitalism is when the exploited ones become your own people. I am oversimplifying, but in essence, the Populists feared that Obama and Globalism were attempting to broker peace at the expense of exposing the uneducated middle and lower middle class of the US to the competition which would put them at a disadvantage. They thought (and think) that Trump is helping them by considering their interests before those of the rest of the world. Obama likely thought that global consensus was cheaper than war, which is correct, but that it hollows out the US middle. War preserves US economic health in the short term and also pads the pockets of the wealthy. This cycle has to finish before once again the voice of the people will demand justice and mercy. And the Populists will want to be in on that game as much as the ethnic minorities in Iraq...only at the level they have become used to. Like I said--its a growing war of ideologies and competing interests.

And jar: How rude. I am not in a debate class getting graded for my arguments. I am simply calling things the way I see them. There are many more people even less educated than I, and they *do* have a voice in today's politics, uninformed though they may be.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
"You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle


This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by PaulK, posted 01-20-2020 12:52 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by jar, posted 01-20-2020 1:17 PM Phat has responded
 Message 118 by PaulK, posted 01-20-2020 1:25 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32741
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 117 of 133 (870470)
01-20-2020 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Phat
01-20-2020 1:08 PM


Re: Enemies vs Competitors
Phat writes:

And jar: How rude. I am not in a debate class getting graded for my arguments. I am simply calling things the way I see them. There are many more people even less educated than I, and they *do* have a voice in today's politics, uninformed though they may be.

Yes Phat, that is what you are doing and yes Phat, they do have a voice in today's politics, uninformed though they may be and as long as they choose to be uninformed what does the evidence show the result will likely be.

But you are still not addressing the topic or any of the issues raised by anybody.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Phat, posted 01-20-2020 1:08 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Phat, posted 01-20-2020 1:54 PM jar has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16480
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 118 of 133 (870472)
01-20-2020 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Phat
01-20-2020 1:08 PM


Re: Enemies vs Competitors
quote:
And its still that way. Capitalism is fine as long as the people being exploited are the "others". The dnger of capitalism is when the exploited ones become your own people

That may be “all right” for the selfish, but capitalism will always try to exploit “your own people”. Not every business owner will do it, but some certainly will. Laws to protect workers have been enacted, but still businesses will try. Zero-hours contracts and “the gig economy” are recent examples.

But of course you miss the central point. The US participated in the overthrow of a democratic government (and that is far from the only example) and propped up the repressive regime that followed. That set the stage for Khomeini and the Islamic Republic.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Phat, posted 01-20-2020 1:08 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Phat, posted 01-20-2020 1:57 PM PaulK has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14338
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 119 of 133 (870474)
01-20-2020 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by jar
01-20-2020 1:17 PM


Re: Enemies vs Competitors
jar writes:

you are still not addressing the topic or any of the issues raised by anybody.

Yes I am. We have examined 4 transitions and four different results.
Yugoslavia.
Czechoslovakia
Japan
Iraq

What further information and/or schoolwork do you want from me?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
"You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle


This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by jar, posted 01-20-2020 1:17 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14338
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 120 of 133 (870475)
01-20-2020 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by PaulK
01-20-2020 1:25 PM


Re: Enemies vs Competitors
PaulK writes:

The US participated in the overthrow of a democratic government (and that is far from the only example) and propped up the repressive regime that followed. That set the stage for Khomeini and the Islamic Republic.

Yeah I read that. I seem to remember it as a footnote in history but it was not really relevant until brought up in the context of our discussions today.

So the US blew it. Have we learned anything since then or is our aggressive support of dictators (except Saddam, evidently) part of our foreign policy manual?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
"You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle


This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by PaulK, posted 01-20-2020 1:25 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by PaulK, posted 01-20-2020 2:03 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 122 by jar, posted 01-20-2020 3:55 PM Phat has responded

  
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