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Author Topic:   Iraq needed Saddam?
PaulK
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Posts: 15932
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 121 of 133 (870477)
01-20-2020 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Phat
01-20-2020 1:57 PM


Re: Enemies vs Competitors
I hope the US has learned, although there were certainly messes as recent as the 1980s Iran-Contra Affair where the US sold weapons to Iran and some of the funds were diverted to support groups which could reasonably labelled as terrorists.

This message is a reply to:
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jar
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Posts: 32167
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 122 of 133 (870480)
01-20-2020 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Phat
01-20-2020 1:57 PM


western, particularly US, meddkling in the affairs of other governments
Phat, we created Saddam and he was our ally. It was OUR ambassador that gave Saddam the go ahead to invade Kuwait. Are you are familiar with the meeting between Saddam and Ambassador Glaspie?

The US has long supported dictators as long as it was in the interest of US businesses. Consider the part United Fruit and our support of the company played in all the unrest in South America.

Consider your assertion up thread that the US had so right to the oil in Iran and Iraq.

While we may pay lip service to words like "Democracy" and "Self Governance" is is only as long as those silly things do not interfere with making a profit.

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Phat, posted 01-21-2020 8:23 AM jar has responded
 Message 126 by Phat, posted 01-21-2020 3:42 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13699
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 123 of 133 (870494)
01-21-2020 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by jar
01-20-2020 3:55 PM


For A season We Needed Saddam In Iraq. What changed?
My subtitle says it all. So we "created" Saddam, correct? Why did we later dispose of him? Did we not foresee a trillion-dollar boondoggle? Did Britain and Margaret Thatcher change our mind on Kuwait?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
"You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle


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 Message 122 by jar, posted 01-20-2020 3:55 PM jar has responded

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jar
Member
Posts: 32167
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 124 of 133 (870503)
01-21-2020 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Phat
01-21-2020 8:23 AM


Re: For A season We Needed Saddam In Iraq. What changed?
Probably not related at all.

The issue was most likely the result of our simply not giving clear guidance to the Ambassador, or at least that would be my charitable position. BUT remember that George HW Bush also served as the head of the CIA for a year under Gerald Ford and as Vice President under Ronald Reagan. He was not a naive non-political person unfamiliar with either the history of the region or intrigue.

Why did the US see the expansion of Iraq as a major threat?

But again, return to the examples of Yugoslavia, Czeckoslovakia, the US and Iraq. What should we learn from the former that might be relevant today related to Iraq and equally important Turkey?

Edited by jar, : hit wrong key


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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ringo
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Posts: 17924
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 125 of 133 (870514)
01-21-2020 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by Phat
01-20-2020 12:44 PM


Re: Enemies vs Competitors
Phat writes:

On a simple level, I think that the US wants Iraq to become democratic(as in friendly trading partner)....


In terms of international relations and trade, stability is more important than democracy. Democracies tend to be unstable. The US and Canada, for example, tend to swing back and forth between left and right every decade or so. Sometimes, some clod like Trump decides to undo all the deals done by the previous administration.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

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Phat
Member
Posts: 13699
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 126 of 133 (870525)
01-21-2020 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by jar
01-20-2020 3:55 PM


Why did the US see the expansion of Iraq as a major threat?
jar writes:

Why did the US see the expansion of Iraq as a major threat?


Let's start with Saddam. This is where I get a bit confused since you said that *we* created Saddam. So I did a quickie self-studied History Lesson. Let's see if I can identify any of the main points or issues:

Elsevier Ltd writes:

The American invasion of Iraq in 2003 had begun, according to the view of the American government and their allies, as a legitimate, defensive response to the threat of weapons of mass destruction (WMD), which the Saddam Hussein government allegedly had in its arsenal. Saddam Hussein's government was immediately perceived as a threat and an affront to the international community in the wake the September 11, 2001 bombing of the world trade center. America has found a casus belli to go to war under the so-called “war on terrorism” slogan.

So my first question is why did it take so long for the US to brand Saddam as a terrorist? It seems to me that these issues are more complex than a surface assessment will indicate. So I need to ask myself another question.
  • Why was Saddam initially useful to us in the first place? Im thinking that his authoritarian regime tampered ethnic division and the prospect of dealing with 2 or 3 separate countries, ethnic populations, and national interests.

    Elsevier Ltd. writes:

    According to the United States of America, there was a strong linkage between Saddam Hussein and international terrorism and the first priority of the United States government is to protect its citizens and its political and economic interests; its national security is always paramount

    Also, the United States significantly supports democratic governments around the world and the Baathist regime was seen as totalitarian and undemocratic. Consequently, regime change in Iraq became the U.S. priority and the only way to achieve that was through the use of force.


    History shows us that we used our excessive force and won the wars decisively. A question that pops up in my mind is also this:
  • Were we really liberating the people of Iraq or were they merely secondary? Was our real focus on liberating the resources of Iraq useful to us and eliminating the hotheaded dictator we helped create and attempting to put friendly people in power? It seems to be a reoccurring theme with us.
    The research paper focuses on the U.S. decision to invade Iraq from three different analytical perspectives:
    realism, liberalism, and Marxist perspective in order to figure out the causes of the invasion decision.
    These three international theories are integrated with four different levels of analysis such as individual level, state level, systematic level, and socio-economic level.
    OK, this is quickly getting complicated. Perhaps I can break it down to its essence.

  • We (The US Position) could care less about the health and well being of foreign people, except as to their stability as a country and their usefulness to us.

    These chickens are coming home to roost. No longer do we have a world of weak countries and docile populations. We are now competing with these people and these countries.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
    "~Thugpreacha

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
    "You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 122 by jar, posted 01-20-2020 3:55 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 128 by jar, posted 01-21-2020 4:39 PM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 13699
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 127 of 133 (870526)
    01-21-2020 3:49 PM
    Reply to: Message 125 by ringo
    01-21-2020 10:53 AM


    Re: Enemies vs Competitors
    ringo writes:

    Democracies tend to be unstable.

    Perhaps Moscow Mitch and the Senate Republicans see Trump as stable enough for their interests which are not so much democratic as they are republican nationalist.
    quote:
    “...After all, the chief business of the American people is business. They are profoundly concerned with producing, buying, selling, investing and prospering in the world. I am strongly of the opinion that the great majority of people will always find these are the moving impulses of our life. But it is only those who do not understand our people, who believe that our national life is entirely absorbed by material motives. We make no concealment of the fact that we want wealth, but there are many other things that we want much more. We want peace and honor, and that charity which is so strong an element of all civilization. The chief ideal of the American people is idealism.”
    ― Calvin Coolidge


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
    "~Thugpreacha

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
    "You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 125 by ringo, posted 01-21-2020 10:53 AM ringo has responded

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     Message 133 by ringo, posted 01-21-2020 6:51 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 32167
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.1


    Message 128 of 133 (870530)
    01-21-2020 4:39 PM
    Reply to: Message 126 by Phat
    01-21-2020 3:42 PM


    Re: Why did the US see the expansion of Iraq as a major threat?
    Phat writes:

    These chickens are coming home to roost. No longer do we have a world of weak countries and docile populations. We are now competing with these people and these countries.

    Back to competition yet again. Sheesh.

    We are not competing with the people of other nations!


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
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    Replies to this message:
     Message 129 by Phat, posted 01-21-2020 4:51 PM jar has responded
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 13699
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 129 of 133 (870534)
    01-21-2020 4:51 PM
    Reply to: Message 128 by jar
    01-21-2020 4:39 PM


    Re: Why did the US see the expansion of Iraq as a major threat?
    jar writes:

    Back to competition yet again. Sheesh.

    Competition is at the core of these issues.
  • Do ethnic minorities compete with ruling majorities?
  • Do Communist and Capitalist ideologies compete?
  • Does China and the US compete for global oil? Will they?

  • Does International Terrorism threaten US interests and if so, are we essentially competing? And if so, with whom? What does terrorism hope to accomplish?

    Edited by Thugpreacha, : spellcheck


    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”lvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 128 by jar, posted 01-21-2020 4:39 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 130 by jar, posted 01-21-2020 4:55 PM Phat has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 32167
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.1


    Message 130 of 133 (870535)
    01-21-2020 4:55 PM
    Reply to: Message 129 by Phat
    01-21-2020 4:51 PM


    Re: Why did the US see the expansion of Iraq as a major threat?
    Phat writes:

    Competition is at the core of these issues.

    Sheesh!


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 129 by Phat, posted 01-21-2020 4:51 PM Phat has responded

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 13699
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 131 of 133 (870537)
    01-21-2020 5:05 PM
    Reply to: Message 130 by jar
    01-21-2020 4:55 PM


    Re: Why did the US see the expansion of Iraq as a major threat?
    Perhaps you can offer your assessment as to what the core issues are then. Note that the conservatives supported Trump's assassination of that general.
    Perhaps it helped the competition? Or am I missing something...

    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”lvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 130 by jar, posted 01-21-2020 4:55 PM jar has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 13699
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 132 of 133 (870538)
    01-21-2020 5:09 PM
    Reply to: Message 128 by jar
    01-21-2020 4:39 PM


    Re: Why did the US see the expansion of Iraq as a major threat?
    jar writes:

    We are not competing with the people of other nations!

    if we had open borders and my $18.00 an hour job got downsized to a 12.00 an hour job, and the immigration labor was willing to do it for less, I most certainly would be competing against other nations. Why do you think we fight so hard for seniority?

    Off Topic, I know. Perhaps you can help us refocus.


    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”lvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 128 by jar, posted 01-21-2020 4:39 PM jar has not yet responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 17924
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.5


    (1)
    Message 133 of 133 (870541)
    01-21-2020 6:51 PM
    Reply to: Message 127 by Phat
    01-21-2020 3:49 PM


    Re: Enemies vs Competitors
    Phat writes:

    Perhaps Moscow Mitch and the Senate Republicans see Trump as stable enough for their interests which are not so much democratic as they are republican nationalist.


    Trump's stability isn't really the issue. True, he'd probably be as incompetent a dictator as he is at everything else - but the point is that Americans, and to be fair most nations, don't mind dealing with a dictator as long as they know what to expect.

    "I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 127 by Phat, posted 01-21-2020 3:49 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
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