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Author Topic:   Good drugs, bad drugs, legal drugs, illegal drugs
jar
Member
Posts: 31753
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 91 of 115 (598014)
12-26-2010 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by iano
12-26-2010 4:00 PM


Re: towards a solution
Of course. And I don't see the correlation that you claim.

But even if it were true, so what?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by iano, posted 12-26-2010 4:00 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by iano, posted 12-26-2010 6:06 PM jar has responded

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3811
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 92 of 115 (598015)
12-26-2010 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by iano
12-26-2010 4:00 PM


Re: towards a solution
Hi, iano. Your market analysis seems to have some counterintuitive elements.

iano writes:

reduced price (enabled by removal of the drugs cartels and production by efficient methods)

How would addicts receiving free fixes at a state clinic have any price effect elsewhere?

If the free clinics are devastating to black market drug supplies (and you seem to agree they would be), what other source of drugs could become cheaper?

ease of access ( available on the street corner instead of down dark alleyways)

How would addicts receiving free fixes at a state clinic have any impact on street corners or alleyways?

It's not as if folks would be able to present themselves to the clinic and say, "I'd like to become an addict, please."


I know there's a balance, I see it when I swing past.
-J. Mellencamp

Real things always push back.
-William James


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by iano, posted 12-26-2010 4:00 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31753
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 93 of 115 (598016)
12-26-2010 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Omnivorous
12-26-2010 6:00 PM


Re: towards a solution
Omni writes:

It's not as if folks would be able to present themselves to the clinic and say, "I'd like to become an addict, please."

But if they did show up and say that they wanted to try drugs, at least there would be professional councilors there to guide them towards less hazardous options.

AbE:

Also there would be an assurance that the quality and portion control, instructions and warnings would be included.

Edited by jar, : add material


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Omnivorous, posted 12-26-2010 6:00 PM Omnivorous has not yet responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 277 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 94 of 115 (598017)
12-26-2010 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by jar
12-26-2010 5:26 PM


Re: towards a solution
jar writes:

Of course.

Of course what?

And I don't see the correlation that you claim.

You don't see the correlation between dismanting fences to consumption and increasing consumption?

But even if it were true, so what?

I would imagine you'd want to do a cost-benefit analysis before making currently illicit drugs more freely available. Consider that your action could produce more people addicted to/negatively affected by drugs than the current policy does.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by jar, posted 12-26-2010 5:26 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by jar, posted 12-26-2010 6:08 PM iano has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31753
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 95 of 115 (598018)
12-26-2010 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by iano
12-26-2010 6:06 PM


Re: towards a solution
If so, and I doubt that, so what?

What is wrong with being addicted?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by iano, posted 12-26-2010 6:06 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by iano, posted 12-26-2010 6:14 PM jar has responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 277 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 96 of 115 (598019)
12-26-2010 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Omnivorous
12-26-2010 6:00 PM


Re: towards a solution
Omnivorous writes:

How would addicts receiving free fixes at a state clinic have any price effect elsewhere?

I was dealing with a view which would:

jar writes:

..decriminalize drug use, nationalize drug productions, subsidize it and give them away for free through a local clinic setting where users also get free medical care and education.

Currently drugs cost folk money. This policy would ensure drugs cost no money. A current (significant) impediment to consumption eliminated would produce (according to the aforementioned rule of thumb) an increase in drug consumption. That doesn't strike me as an intelligent policy.

Your point seems to deal with only addicts so perhaps we're ships passing?

Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Omnivorous, posted 12-26-2010 6:00 PM Omnivorous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Theodoric, posted 12-26-2010 6:17 PM iano has acknowledged this reply
 Message 101 by Omnivorous, posted 12-26-2010 7:06 PM iano has not yet responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 277 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 97 of 115 (598020)
12-26-2010 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by jar
12-26-2010 6:08 PM


Re: towards a solution
jar writes:

If so, and I doubt that, so what?

What is wrong with being addicted?

It's generally considered a negative thing. If a policy produces a negative result then it's not usually considered a good policy.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by jar, posted 12-26-2010 6:08 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by jar, posted 12-26-2010 6:22 PM iano has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6879
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 98 of 115 (598021)
12-26-2010 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by iano
12-26-2010 6:12 PM


Re: towards a solution
Currently drugs cost folk money. This policy would ensure drugs cost no money. A current impediment to consumption

Can you show any evidence that the fact drugs cost money is an impediment? If it was such an impediment why is drug dealing such a lucrative profession? Oh yeah, people steal and kill to get money for drugs,

Yes I can see how that is much better for society.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by iano, posted 12-26-2010 6:12 PM iano has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31753
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 99 of 115 (598022)
12-26-2010 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by iano
12-26-2010 6:14 PM


Re: towards a solution
iano writes:

It's generally considered a negative thing. If a policy produces a negative result then it's not usually considered a good policy.

So let's examine the position.

Note that many companies have "random drug testing". There is a reason for that. A big one is that most drug use simply can't be detected without drug testing. The people continue to function and perform their jobs. Now granted, there are a few jobs where zero tolerance might be applicable, but for the majority of positions it is just silly.

The current position is as clearly a failure and it is time to step back and try something different.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by iano, posted 12-26-2010 6:14 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by iano, posted 12-26-2010 6:45 PM jar has responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 277 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 100 of 115 (598023)
12-26-2010 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by jar
12-26-2010 6:22 PM


Re: towards a solution
Fair enough. If you don't see increased consumption of addictive/damaging substances as a negative thing then there really isn't much to discuss.

-

he current position is as clearly a failure and it is time to step back and try something different.

The current system is a relative failure. Relative to a better system that is. Unless the alternative can reasonably be expected to improve on the current then there is no reason to change. The fact that the current has failings doesn't mean anything else is better.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by jar, posted 12-26-2010 6:22 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by jar, posted 12-26-2010 7:55 PM iano has not yet responded

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3811
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 101 of 115 (598025)
12-26-2010 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by iano
12-26-2010 6:12 PM


Re: towards a solution
iano writes:

Your point seems to deal with only addicts so perhaps we're ships passing?

Well, I'd not have the government supply "soft" drugs--just get out of the way, and let our gardening genius operate.

Drug cartels can't compete with the homegrown movement.

So we're probably ships passing while preparing broadsides at all ports.


I know there's a balance, I see it when I swing past.
-J. Mellencamp

Real things always push back.
-William James


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by iano, posted 12-26-2010 6:12 PM iano has not yet responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 2049 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 102 of 115 (598026)
12-26-2010 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by iano
12-26-2010 5:24 PM


Re: towards a solution
iano writes:

Panda writes:

Cigarettes

Consumption is falling. And?

Panda writes:

Alcohol

Ditto above.


Do you have a problem remembering what the fuck you are talking about?
The fact that alcohol and cigarette consumption is dropping directly contradicts your baseless assertion:

iano writes:

A general rule of thumb when it comes to consumables tells us that as access simplifies > consumption goes up.

You claim that legalising substances increases their consumption.
And when I show you that legal drug consumption is dropping: you post a link to research into how to reduce the consumption of legal drugs.
You don't seem to know what you are saying.

Your claim that legalising drugs increases their consumption is still just an assertion lacking any support.
Legalisation and education have a proven history of reducing consumption: we can see it happening all around us.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by iano, posted 12-26-2010 5:24 PM iano has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31753
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 103 of 115 (598027)
12-26-2010 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by iano
12-26-2010 6:45 PM


Re: towards a solution
iano writes:

Fair enough. If you don't see increased consumption of addictive/damaging substances as a negative thing then there really isn't much to discuss.

Increased consumption of addictive/damaging substances was simply an assertion that YOU made.

The question is still an open one and if the program I outlined was implemented I do not believe we would see an "Increased consumption of addictive/damaging substances".

In addition, not all of the currently illicit drugs are damaging.

Finally, I would say that the current system is not a relative failure, it is far more destructive to society than the drugs themselves.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by iano, posted 12-26-2010 6:45 PM iano has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 104 of 115 (598037)
12-27-2010 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Hyroglyphx
12-26-2010 10:13 AM


jar's right
Message 35

My philosophy, when it comes to drugs, is non-intervention.

That's certainly the easiest philosophy... but what about the people that need help? That's who were talking about here. There's plenty of people using drugs with no problems, and they should be left alone, yes. But there's also people who have problems, and leaving them alone doesn't help and only makes things worse.

But there is another way of handling things that I also disagree with, and those are the people who facilitate addicts.

The last thing we should do is let addicts fend for themselves on the streets, no?

They facilitate them by making sure they can shoot up (or by whatever delivery method) safely and in their care.

That's not all they do. Consuling, treatment, and education are all part of the facilitation too.

By doing this, you only ensure that people will die at their own hand.

Well sure, if all they did was leave a basket of free drugs on the doorstep, then you might have a point. But there's a lot more to it. How many time have you been treated for drug addiction? How do you know what you know about it?

These people are complicit in the deaths of the very people they try to help because they're enablers.

Drug addiction treatment facility workers are not enablers. The goal is to stop them from using.

Message 45:

Yes, enablers are complicit in the deaths of those that do overdose. Hell, just watch 1 show of "Intervention" on A&E to see how they handle it.

Yeah, they bring in an expert from a facility and they come in and show the family how to stop enabling the addict and then take them to a facility where they can get treatment, which includes free drugs.

If drug addicts know that the gub'ment is going to provide them with fresh needles, food, a warm place to stay, etc, what incentive is there to stop? When the junky never hits rock bottom, what motivation is there to get clean?

Because being an addict sucks...

I think most addicts do want to be clean, they are just unable (hence them being addicts).

But we can limit this to just those who don't.

Now, we can assume that there are going to be some happy-to-be addicts that would rely on everyone else for free drugs and a place to do nothing.

There's going to be some cost associated with that upon the rest of society, regardless of how we handle them.

So, if the cost to house them and enable them was less than the cost to fight them, would you be for it then?

Message 78

Because it's not a role of the government. The government should not be waging wars on its citizens over drugs, nor should it expect its citizens to pay for the treatment of others.

I get you not wanting people to have to pay for others to be unproductive, but its inevitable. Why not go for the one that is going to cost people less?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-26-2010 10:13 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5863
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 105 of 115 (598038)
12-27-2010 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Modulous
12-26-2010 5:15 PM


Re: Empirical evidence
The fact is that addicts are going to cost us money - so we should be looking at how to reduce that where possible.

Okay, so here's the million dollar question: Why is it the government's role to provide funding for this, versus from private donation?

The Salvation Army isn't run under the government, PBS isn't run by the government, etc, etc, and do quite well for themselves and their constituents.

You may think that it is impractical, but the private, charitable donations of United States citizens attribute the largest amount of foreign aid in the world, surpassing even the U.S. government. Of the $122.8 billion dollars spent on foreign aid, $95.5 billion was given by private donation, accounting for 79% of the total charity. That's certainly nothing to scoff at.

The government can't even manage its own books, it's now mathematically impossible to pay the staggering debt, and the dollar is on the verge of hyperinflation. Now we have a president who apparently thinks you can just print more money. He's dwarfed the budget of both Reagan and Bush Jr. (which seems impossible), and I simply have no confidence in his abilities as a leader.

And here's the thing. People love to sanctimoniously judge people who don't believe in the efficacy of government programs. It's all fine and good until they actually have to give their own money. If all of you feel so impassioned about it, then put your money where your mouth is.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Modulous, posted 12-26-2010 5:15 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by jar, posted 12-27-2010 11:30 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded
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