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Author Topic:   Abortion - Moments of (Mis)Conception
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 151 of 178 (390278)
03-19-2007 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by ICANT
03-19-2007 4:25 PM


Re: Abortion
Are you telling me that abstinence will not work it people practice it?
I'm telling you that promoting it doesn't make people do it. Since your technique doesn't cause people to be abstinent, it doesn't have any effect.
Does that make me something other than a human.
I don't think I said you were anything but a human.
But I truly believe that there is not a single person in my congregation that would not confide in me as I have never broken their trust, and I have heard it all I think, probably not as I am learning a lot here.
Like I said I think you should seek help for your arrogance problem. That's going to be a big stumbling block in your ministry. I'm very surprised, in fact, that some big deal hasn't already exploded under your very nose. But I can assure you - without even needing to meet you or the people of your congregation - that your certainty that you have the confidence of everyone in your congregation almost certainly keeps some people from coming to you with things.
I think you are right that I do condone it as I believe all aborted fetus go to heaven.
Then we should abort everybody, don't you think? To save them from the chance of going to hell? The chance to sin?
I mean even God told his priests how to mix an abortifacent for adulterous wives. It's right there in the old testament. Clearly God's on board with abortion. What's your issue?
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Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by ICANT, posted 03-19-2007 4:25 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 152 of 178 (390280)
03-19-2007 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by nator
03-19-2007 4:15 PM


Re: Re-Pain
And you are still avoiding dealing with my specific cases and how they fit into your position of "abortion is always murder.
I have stated many times I believe taking a human life is murder.
So I will expand, it does not make any difference whether that life is a fetus or a teenager or a 90 year old.
It is a serious, horrible thing to accuse a person of murder, ICANT.
I accuse no one because our court system and congress has told everyone that it is OK. I only state my personal belief concerning taking the life of another human being.
nator as to your specific cases I think my above statement says it all.
I am sure that all my beliefs that I have accumulated over the years clouds my understanding. That is precisely why I am here trying to learn how I can better serve my people.
I am far from perfect but I want to be the best for those having problems relating to ab as well as many other things.
It is great to have the input and a place to air my views and gather new views by honing the old ones.
Let's say that it was shown to be feasable and didn't take much time.
When I mentioned time I was refering to how long the sperm and egg could live outside the human body.
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Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

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Replies to this message:
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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3912 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 153 of 178 (390281)
03-19-2007 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by ICANT
03-19-2007 1:31 PM


Re: Justify
Ringo you put me on a spot with this one but I will answer at the edge of going off topic. I believe that when the sperm and egg fuse (conception) the fetus becomes a living soul.
So when one egg splits into 2, do the pair of twins have 1/2 of a soul?
What about when two fertilized eggs join to make one? Does the resulting person have 2 souls?
Chimeras
Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 154 of 178 (390285)
03-19-2007 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by crashfrog
03-19-2007 4:46 PM


Re: Abortion
I don't think I said you were anything but a human.
But you implied that because I was a Pastor that I was some kind of monster or something.
I realize most pro life people are extremist, but I don't consider myself one of them. The only thing I am an extremist about is the taking of a human life, be it fetus, or adult.
Like I said I think you should seek help for your arrogance problem. That's going to be a big stumbling block in your ministry.
In 40 years it has not been a problem.
without even needing to meet you or the people of your congregation - that your certainty that you have the confidence of everyone in your congregation
If I did not believe that any person in my congregation would not come to me with a problem concerning abortion or anything else, I would tend my resignation immediately. But we are getting off topic.
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nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 155 of 178 (390286)
03-19-2007 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by ICANT
03-19-2007 4:50 PM


Re: Re-Pain
quote:
So I will expand, it does not make any difference whether that life is a fetus or a teenager or a 90 year old.
OK, so can we put you on record as saying that a woman who aborts a fetus that is growing in her fallopian tube is mudering that fetus?
Can we put you on record as saying that a woman who aborts a fetus that lacks a brain and will die as soon as it is born is murdering that fetus?
It is a serious, horrible thing to accuse a person of murder, ICANT.
quote:
I accuse no one because our court system and congress has told everyone that it is OK. I only state my personal belief concerning taking the life of another human being.
What kind of nonsense are you spouting here?
YOU, personally, are accusing millions of women who have gotten abortions of the crime of premeditated murder, regardless of what the law says, aren't you?
You clearly disagree with the law in this matter, so YOU are judging these women and girls to be murderers.
I mean, seriously, if YOU, personally believe abortion to be murder, the YOU, personally must believe that the people who murdered them are, in fact, murderers.
It can't be any other way and still make sense.
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Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by ICANT, posted 03-19-2007 4:50 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by ICANT, posted 03-19-2007 5:40 PM nator has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 156 of 178 (390291)
03-19-2007 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by nator
03-19-2007 5:08 PM


Re: Re-Pain
OK, so can we put you on record as saying that a woman who aborts a fetus that is growing in her fallopian tube is mudering that fetus?
You can put me on record as saying I believe that taking a human life is murder I don't care if it is a fetus, small child, teenager, adult even if state, doctor, or individual administered, I do not know how to say it any plainer that that.
I mean, seriously, if YOU, personally believe abortion to be murder, the YOU, personally must believe that the people who murdered them are, in fact, murderers.
Do I believe a woman having an abortion is a murderer? I believe she is consenting to it and will have to answer to herself and God for it. The person performing the abortion in my view would be committing murder.
Answering to herself is why I am here posting to see how I can better help those who come to me who are suffering from their self inflicted pain and pain inflicted by ignorant, selfish, self-righteous fanatics.
I think I have stated enough times what I believe about murder being the taking of human life. Now lets put that dead horse to rest.
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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 157 of 178 (390293)
03-19-2007 5:55 PM


Re-Abortion
I have thoroughly enjoyed these encounters and have learned much that I will be able to use in helping those I counsel Pre and Post abortion. There have been things pointed out that I may have been insensitive to in the past that I need to correct.
If any of you can think of anything we have not discussed here or that would be off topic that can help me to help those I council with concerning abortion please send it to me.
I am grateful to our admin. for allowing us to stray off topic so many times.
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 158 of 178 (390301)
03-19-2007 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by ICANT
03-19-2007 5:40 PM


ICANT writes:
I think I have stated enough times what I believe about murder being the taking of human life.
What you haven't stated - and what the topic is about - is what makes a fetus a "human life".
You clearly have not thought that through - and you clearly don't want to.
Nobody can help you understand (and frankly, I don't think your couselling will be effective if you don't understand) as long as your mind is closed as tight as a bear trap.

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 159 of 178 (390310)
03-19-2007 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by nator
03-19-2007 4:35 PM


Re: Abortion
they are also more likely to have oral and anal sex and earlier. cause "it ain't immoral if it's oral!"
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nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 160 of 178 (390372)
03-19-2007 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by ICANT
03-19-2007 5:40 PM


Re: Re-Pain
OK, so can we put you on record as saying that a woman who aborts a fetus that is growing in her fallopian tube is mudering that fetus?
quote:
You can put me on record as saying I believe that taking a human life is murder I don't care if it is a fetus, small child, teenager, adult even if state, doctor, or individual administered, I do not know how to say it any plainer that that.
How about, "Yes"? That's simpler yet.
OK, I will consider you someone who thinks that a woman who aborts a fetus that is guaranteed to kill her is a murderer.
I will also consider you someone who thinks that a woman who aborts a fetus that doesn't have a brain and will for sure die shortly after being born is a murderer.
That is a completely heartless position that is irrelevant to the real world situations that some women find themselves in.
And you say you want to counsel them? Poor women.
I mean, seriously, if YOU, personally believe abortion to be murder, the YOU, personally must believe that the people who murdered them are, in fact, murderers.
quote:
Do I believe a woman having an abortion is a murderer? I believe she is consenting to it and will have to answer to herself and God for it. The person performing the abortion in my view would be committing murder.
OK, so you think that the women and physicians are murderers.
Can you please explain how in the world this is not you passing down a terrible personal judgement upon them?
I mean, seriously, ICANT. I know you really WANT to not be judgemental, becasue you aren't supposed to be. But you simply cannot logically believe that all women and doctors who consent to and perform abortions are guilty of cold-blooded murder and NOT be judging them!
You are very much judging them. Very, very much.
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 161 of 178 (390415)
03-20-2007 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by nator
03-19-2007 8:31 AM


Your position is all about blaming the woman for consenting to sex, rat.
That is just a more polite way of calling her a slut.
Life is beautiful. Having children is a blessing, not a consequence.
Woman who consent to intercourse, and get pregnant, are not "getting blamed" That's just BS. It's just nature doing it's thing.
You guys are the ones with the interpretation problem, and name calling. Your just liars in other words.
Plus that is not the only point that my decision hinders on.
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 162 of 178 (390416)
03-20-2007 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by macaroniandcheese
03-19-2007 2:12 PM


you are the one who keeps bragging that you had this position before you found god. you mentioned god;
I had to tell you that, because your the one who keeps bringing up God, and the church, and religion. All of which have nothing to do with this. We are not debating about forcing religious views on others.
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 163 of 178 (390417)
03-20-2007 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Asgara
03-19-2007 9:08 AM


Re: Re-Abortion
The guilt was from being judged by others, from being told how terrible I was, from losing friends over a very personal decision.
I don't think the guilt comes from what others think in every case. Maybe not even in yours. If you lost friends over this, then maybe they weren't really your friends to begin with.
I felt guilt, because I knew that I had killed a life. One that I was blessed with the opportunity of creating, and I abused that opportunity. No one told me that, it's just how I felt all by myself. No-one even knew I went through it, as we kept it a secret. My fiance at the time, felt the same thing as me, and several other people I know who went through it, all felt the same thing.
When you make the issue about whether or not women have sex while not wanting to be pregnant...calling them sluts is exactly what you are ultimately doing, whether you realize it or not.
Well I think that is total BS. I am not to blame for what happens in nature. I suppose I am responsible for all those fire's in Cali as well?
Are woman sluts only if they get pregnant?
Am I a slut because I got a vasectomy, so I can have sex all the time now?
Maybe when people start facing reality, and stop blaming the world for their problems, abortion will be illegal, and getting pregnant, and having sex will be taken more seriously. If we spent the amount of money on education instead of abortions, maybe we wouldn't need abortions either.
But don't worry, because I am sure nator is going to provide some study to prove that theory wrong.
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nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 164 of 178 (390432)
03-20-2007 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by riVeRraT
03-20-2007 9:27 AM


quote:
Life is beautiful. Having children is a blessing, not a consequence.
That is merely your personal opinion and is a trribly self-righteous and simplistic proclamation.
Clearly, the million or so women and girls who get abortions every year don't think the same as you about those particular pregnancies, do they?
quote:
Woman who consent to intercourse, and get pregnant, are not "getting blamed" That's just BS. It's just nature doing it's thing.
Look rat, moralistic guilt and blame shout from every message you post.
I see it. Brenna sees it. Asgara sees it. Maybe that's because it is there, in your posts, plain as day.
quote:
You guys are the ones with the interpretation problem, and name calling. Your just liars in other words.
OK, then, answer this question.
Does your approval of ending life stem from if a woman consents to sex or if she was forced?
Why is ending life OK in one instance and not OK in another?
It has to do with a woman consenting to sex without intending to get pregnant, right?
This is what you have said repeatedly, isn't it?
Well then, what are some words that can be used to describe women who want to have sex for pleasure only?
Slut.
Easy.
Loose.
Whore.
Tramp.
Immoral.
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This message is a reply to:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 165 of 178 (390447)
03-20-2007 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by riVeRraT
03-20-2007 9:29 AM


actually, considering that almost everyone on your side of the fence talks about "living souls" and whatnot, we are talking about forcing religious views on others.
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