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Author Topic:   Smoking Bans
Straggler
Member (Idle past 152 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 1 of 151 (505494)
04-12-2009 7:09 PM


The smoking ban in pubs and other public places seems to have been succesfully implemented in England after some initial opposition.
This follows other similar bans elsewhere around the world, perhaps most notably New York city as well as various locations in Europe.
Is this an essential public health measure or an infringement of individual rights?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Taz, posted 04-12-2009 9:39 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 4 by onifre, posted 04-12-2009 10:30 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 10 by Larni, posted 04-13-2009 5:12 AM Straggler has replied
 Message 23 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-13-2009 12:53 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 52 by Stile, posted 04-15-2009 12:26 PM Straggler has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3377 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 2 of 151 (505496)
04-12-2009 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
04-12-2009 7:09 PM


Straggler writes:
Is this an essential public health measure or an infringement of individual rights?
When they invent a smokeless cigarette, then it's a public health issue. As long as cigarettes give out smoke, it is an infringement on MY RIGHT to breathe fresh air.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Straggler, posted 04-12-2009 7:09 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Straggler, posted 04-12-2009 10:08 PM Taz has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 152 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 3 of 151 (505500)
04-12-2009 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Taz
04-12-2009 9:39 PM


Legal Limits
When they invent a smokeless cigarette, then it's a public health issue. As long as cigarettes give out smoke, it is an infringement on MY RIGHT to breathe fresh air.
OK.
Is smoking on private property that is not a public space something that should remain legally permissable or not?
For example should it, in your opinion, be legal or illegal to smoke in the home when this results in children being subjected to passive smoke?
Would you consider the law as it currently stands to be about right, not restrictive enough, or too stringent?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Taz, posted 04-12-2009 9:39 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Taz, posted 04-13-2009 1:24 AM Straggler has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 3037 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 4 of 151 (505503)
04-12-2009 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
04-12-2009 7:09 PM


This follows other similar bans elsewhere around the world, perhaps most notably New York city as well as various locations in Europe.
I'm in NY a lot and I can tell you who hates this law...comics.
It sucks that we can't smoke on stage anymore. At first we were getting away with claiming that we were on stage and the cig was considered a prop - it is still considered a prop in NY on Broadway plays though.
But, clubs are so small in the city that people began to follow through with the smoking ban, and now we can have a drink on stage but no cig to follow. Again, it sucks.
Is this an essential public health measure or an infringement of individual rights?
Honestly, yes it is, perhaps, in close quarters, as with the comedy clubs in the city. I guess peoples health is at risk. But as a smoker, fuck them.
I forget which comic had this joke but it went something like: "If I don't give a shit about my lungs what makes you think I care about yours?".
All joking aside though, I am willing to be democratic about it. If the majority of society wants to do away with smoking in public places, cool.
It's my habit not theirs so I get it. But again, it sucks.
I don't however agree that on public property it should be banned. That decision should be left to the owner of the property.
To Taz:
Would you equally reject public marijuana smoking?
How about specified "coffee shops" where legal marijuana is smoked?
I know that's off topic Straggler but I'm curious if marijuana cares with it the same rejection as cigs seem to have.
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Straggler, posted 04-12-2009 7:09 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Straggler, posted 04-12-2009 10:52 PM onifre has replied
 Message 8 by Huntard, posted 04-13-2009 3:32 AM onifre has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 152 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 5 of 151 (505505)
04-12-2009 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by onifre
04-12-2009 10:30 PM


Puff
Hi Oni
My personal opinion is that the law as it currently stands is about right. I think it is a public health issue and that the action recently taken has worked out pretty well. Better than I expected in fact.
Placing further legal restrictions would I think be both impractical and would also arguably require a fairly significant infringement of privacy.
Would you equally reject public marijuana smoking?
How about specified "coffee shops" where legal marijuana is smoked?
I know that's off topic Straggler but I'm curious if marijuana cares with it the same rejection as cigs seem to have.
Not off topic at all as far as I am concerned. And an interesting question.
I think the "coffee shop" culture of Amsterdam works pretty well. We had a less blatantly legal (but in practical terms quite similar) policy in effect in the part of London that I live for a while as a sort of trial. I have only ever smoked those kind of cigarettes and am not a regular by any definition but I quite enjoyed the (all too brief) freedom to do so.
I am not sure how specific "coffee shops" for smoking could be implemented without unduly compromiing the public health issue that the smoking ban is meant to address. After all a main reason cited for the ban was to protect those who work in pubs, bars, clubs, comedy venues etc. etc. I guess not taking a job in a "coffee shop" if you don't want to be subjected to other people's smoke is an obvious answer. But that same argument as applied to clubs and pubs didn't find much favour with unions or politicians..............

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by onifre, posted 04-12-2009 10:30 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by onifre, posted 04-13-2009 7:52 AM Straggler has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3377 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 6 of 151 (505510)
04-13-2009 1:24 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Straggler
04-12-2009 10:08 PM


Re: Legal Limits
Straggler writes:
Is smoking on private property that is not a public space something that should remain legally permissable or not?
There isn't any single answer to this question. The answer to this is common sense. Consider the following question. Is having sex on private property that is not a public space something that should remain legally permissible or not? How would you answer this question? Surely, it depends on the situation. Having sex in front of little kids in your own home is illegal. But just having sex in the privacy of your own home is completely legal.
Catch my drift?
For example should it, in your opinion, be legal or illegal to smoke in the home when this results in children being subjected to passive smoke?
Common sense.
Would you consider the law as it currently stands to be about right, not restrictive enough, or too stringent?
Not restrictive enough. I was driving to work the other day and I looked over at the car driving next to me. There was a male and female in the front seats. In the back was a baby. Both the adults were smoking with their windows completely closed. How is this not child abuse?
I've been looking for any kind of law to file a complaint against people like that. Unfortunately, with our current laws there ain't a thing I can do about it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Straggler, posted 04-12-2009 10:08 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by anglagard, posted 04-13-2009 2:24 AM Taz has not replied
 Message 12 by Straggler, posted 04-13-2009 7:47 AM Taz has replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 923 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 7 of 151 (505512)
04-13-2009 2:24 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Taz
04-13-2009 1:24 AM


Re: Legal Limits
Why don't you just tell all of us if or if not you want to make tobacco use illegal, and if not, what restrictions you desire to be placed upon its use.
Perhaps by doing so, others could ascertain your exact position.
{ABE} Simply saying common sense is the refuge of cowards, or at least those who are mushy in their critical thinking {/ABE}
Edited by anglagard, : No reason given.

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon
The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Taz, posted 04-13-2009 1:24 AM Taz has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2381 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 8 of 151 (505514)
04-13-2009 3:32 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by onifre
04-12-2009 10:30 PM


Something fucked up from my country.
Onifre writes:
Would you equally reject public marijuana smoking?
How about specified "coffee shops" where legal marijuana is smoked?
You know what's funny? In my country they also recently implemented these no-smoking in bars and stuff laws. This means, that you can't smoke weed if you mix it with tabacco (hey, not all people like it pure) in coffeeshops (they are considered "bars" here), however you CAN smoke pure weed.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by onifre, posted 04-12-2009 10:30 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by anglagard, posted 04-13-2009 4:16 AM Huntard has replied
 Message 16 by onifre, posted 04-13-2009 8:06 AM Huntard has not replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 923 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 9 of 151 (505515)
04-13-2009 4:16 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Huntard
04-13-2009 3:32 AM


Re: Something fucked up from my country.
This is a longshot but you wouldn't happen to know anywhere on earth I could smoke some excellent quality Dutch weed, toss down with Belgian beer like Chimay* or a Lambic, and then even go outside and still smoke a Garcia Vega Miniature? (alternatives such as Partagas, Onyx, Punch, and any magical Cubans USA citizens are denied will definitely be considered, finances permitting).
(*sorry Europeans, but Pyramid Snow Cap Ale from Kalama, WA kicks ass over all, unfortunately seasonal but you are more than welcome to prove us wrong. )
Shit, is it OK with the powers that be, or those who seek to replace them with equal or more severe restrictions, that I am allowed to make love to my wife as we see fit?

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon
The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Huntard, posted 04-13-2009 3:32 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Huntard, posted 04-14-2009 7:36 AM anglagard has not replied

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 10 of 151 (505516)
04-13-2009 5:12 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
04-12-2009 7:09 PM


I'm really glad about the ban in England.
It's helped my friends and I quit a very nasty habit.
Why should other people suicidal nature be a burden to other people?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Straggler, posted 04-12-2009 7:09 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Straggler, posted 04-13-2009 7:51 AM Larni has not replied

  
Shield
Member (Idle past 2948 days)
Posts: 482
Joined: 01-29-2008


Message 11 of 151 (505518)
04-13-2009 6:01 AM


The solution is E-Cigs
Here in Denmark, we too, have quite a restrictive smoking ban.
Im a smoker myself, but i dont mind the ban. I know cigarette smokes stinks and is unhealthy, so i cant be bothered to be... bothered.
If you are such heavy smoker that you simply cannot go without cigs during something where you cant smoke, use E-Cigs. They seem to be gaining some popularity here in Denmark.
Read more about E-Cigs here: Electronic cigarette - Wikipedia

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 152 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 12 of 151 (505523)
04-13-2009 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Taz
04-13-2009 1:24 AM


Re: Legal Limits
Straggler writes:
For example should it, in your opinion, be legal or illegal to smoke in the home when this results in children being subjected to passive smoke?
Common sense.
I was driving to work the other day and I looked over at the car driving next to me. There was a male and female in the front seats. In the back was a baby. Both the adults were smoking with their windows completely closed. How is this not child abuse?
Whilst I am not entirely unsympathetic with the sentiment of your comments I am intrigued as to how you reconcile these two seemingly contradictory conclusions?
You have stated that smoking in the home where children are present should be a matter of common sense and not law, but smoking in ones car with children is something that you seem to strongly feel should be criminalised.
Are both ones home and ones car not equally private personal spaces?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Taz, posted 04-13-2009 1:24 AM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by kuresu, posted 04-13-2009 8:21 AM Straggler has replied
 Message 24 by Taz, posted 04-13-2009 1:54 PM Straggler has not replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 152 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 13 of 151 (505524)
04-13-2009 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Larni
04-13-2009 5:12 AM


Re:
I'm really glad about the ban in England.
From a personal point of view so am I.
It has made a huge difference to not have my clothes and hair infested with the smell of smoke after every pub outing.
Now all I have to worry about is my beery breath giving the game away as to where I have been..........

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Larni, posted 04-13-2009 5:12 AM Larni has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 3037 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 14 of 151 (505525)
04-13-2009 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Straggler
04-12-2009 10:52 PM


Re: Puff
Hi Straggler,
My personal opinion is that the law as it currently stands is about right. I think it is a public health issue and that the action recently taken has worked out pretty well. Better than I expected in fact.
Placing further legal restrictions would I think be both impractical and would also arguably require a fairly significant infringement of privacy.
I agree. The current laws seem effective enough and for the most part, my friends and I who do smoke have found it ok to deal with. I usually go outside after a set and have a cig and it's cool. Anyone who is a smoker and is demanding about it should reevaluate the reasons why they feel their rights are being infringed upon.
We had a less blatantly legal (but in practical terms quite similar) policy in effect in the part of London that I live for a while as a sort of trial. I have only ever smoked those kind of cigarettes and am not a regular by any definition but I quite enjoyed the (all too brief) freedom to do so.
It's similar to when I go out to the West Coast(LA - Cali). You can legally smoke pot in your parked car since it is considered private property. It freaks you out at first if you're not ready for that, but like you said, the freedom to do so is nice...and I did so! All I wanted to do in LA was drive some where and "park".
I guess not taking a job in a "coffee shop" if you don't want to be subjected to other people's smoke is an obvious answer.
I worry though that some may take issue with that type of segregation. People will eventually complain.
BUT, one thing that has worked out here in the states, and may be applicable for the "coffee shops", are cigar bars. No one seems to take issue with these either. They are every where here in Miami due to our large Cuban community and I've seen them work out well in other states. People have a different opinion of cigar bars and, I think, cigars in general.

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Straggler, posted 04-12-2009 10:52 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Straggler, posted 04-13-2009 8:04 AM onifre has not replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 152 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 15 of 151 (505528)
04-13-2009 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by onifre
04-13-2009 7:52 AM


Re: Puff
BUT, one thing that has worked out here in the states, and may be applicable for the "coffee shops", are cigar bars. No one seems to take issue with these either. They are every where here in Miami due to our large Cuban community and I've seen them work out well in other states.
I would have no problem with designated 'licensed' smoking bars (of any of the sorts of smoking discussed so far) as long as this did not result in more general legal loopholes that could be exploited or the infringment of the rights of those who work in such places.
People have a different opinion of cigar bars and, I think, cigars in general.
This does indeed seem to be true. However I am not sure exactly why?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by onifre, posted 04-13-2009 7:52 AM onifre has not replied

  
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