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Author Topic:   Immigration issues
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 130 (384479)
02-11-2007 6:53 PM


I would like to see what the average EvC member feels about the current immigration issue. There are some very diverse beliefs concerning the immigration issue. Some Americans believe that national diversity is one of our great strengths and that the mantra, give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free is more than valid, but that embodies the spirit of American ideal. However, during the last few decades, there has been a serious influx of immigration into the United States. The problem they feel with this is that, for one thing, they come here illegally and do not respect the course of action to make themselves legitimate citizens. As well, they feel that the nation cannot sustain itself with a large amount of undocumented people streaming across the borders and taking employment away from its own citizens. They feel that it won't be long before the nation erodes if something isn't done soon.
Certain groups have taken it upon themselves to serve as watchdogs who unofficially augment the US Border Patrol. There is some controversy surrounding these groups, such as the liability concerns associated with vigilante justice. However, one such group, the Minutemen, claim that they have no hands on approach and they simply observe and inform the Border Patrol of the activities occurring in that area.
There is another group who thinks that groups like Minutemen are really just closet racists who don't like hispanics. They feel that there shouldn't even be a border to begin with and call for the immediate removal of the Border Patrol. They feel as though people should be able to mingle the way they see fit and to work where ever they please.
I would like to know what the audience feels about this case. Do you think groups like the Minutemen have legitimate concerns, or do you feel that any kind of laws barring immigration should be expunged from record?

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by macaroniandcheese, posted 02-11-2007 7:10 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 130 (384492)
02-11-2007 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminQuetzal
02-11-2007 7:02 PM


No worries
Sorry NJ, the only place for this one to go is Coffee House the way the board is structured. SocIssues in Cre/Evo is only for topics related to the primary debate. It's a good OP, hope it gets good play.
No apologies necessary. I see alot of Admins place any and all social issues in the SocIssues in Creo/Evo room, when in many cases it doesn't belong there. Coffee House the most appropriate thread.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminQuetzal, posted 02-11-2007 7:02 PM AdminQuetzal has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 130 (384498)
02-11-2007 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by macaroniandcheese
02-11-2007 7:10 PM


Immigration
we have always thought that the newest group of americans was going to erode our society. italians and irish were once a plague on our society.
Good point. When Italians and the Irish came here in droves there was a lot of flak taken over that. There were some social and economic problems associated with it during that time, but we seemed to have survived it and even benefited from it as a nation.
now they are having their turn to hate the new guys who are taking their jobs. i think the solution to the "immigration crisis" is to figure out why they want to come here. this is obvious enough. life is good here and shitty where they come from. so, i propose that if we really want to slow immigration, that we change our foreign policy to aid in the betterment of the emmigrating nations.
Good post, Brenna. To a large extent I agree with you. In my opinion, I understand that people want to come here seeking a better way of life for their family. Who can argue against that? You can't help but to feel sympathetic to their plight. At the same time, I have very strong views on what is the best way to come here. And the reason that is because if we don't go through the legal process to naturalize people, the great land of opportunity they came here to capitalise on with slowly degrade in to that second or third world they fled from. Which will be bad for everyone.
I also have a problem with people demonizing the nation for its stance on protecting the border, which by way of comparison, is more lax than other countries. I mean, every country on earth seeks to protect its borders for its own security. And yet it seems that the US is the only nation being berated over that. Why this singling out?
In summary, I'm all for immigration, but I am opposed to illegal immigration.
Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : typo

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by macaroniandcheese, posted 02-11-2007 7:10 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by gene90, posted 02-11-2007 8:15 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 11 by subbie, posted 02-11-2007 8:34 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 32 by macaroniandcheese, posted 02-12-2007 1:00 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 130 (384521)
02-11-2007 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by gene90
02-11-2007 8:15 PM


Re: Immigration
America does take a lot of flack for being too restrictive in granting citizenship, but we have a fairly liberal policy compared to other first-world nations
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. And yet, for some reason, the US seems to be picked out of the crowd.
Australia (you must be less than 45 and have demonstrable job skills; although there are other ways in if you happen to be rich)
I didn't know about Japan or the Netherlands, but I did know that Australia had a huge influx of Asian and European immigrants coming in and causing economic problems. Its gotten so bad that they have some of the strictest visa laws in the world.
I don't think these last two are unreasonable by the way, but imagine the outcry if the United States were to do this.
Oh, forget about it. We'd be the scourge of the earth... Come to think of it... We already are.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by gene90, posted 02-11-2007 8:15 PM gene90 has replied

Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 130 (384528)
02-11-2007 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Taz
02-11-2007 8:24 PM


... And justice for some
I have been, however, listening to arguments from both sides and trying to analyze their strengths and weaknesses. The best argument I have heard against illegal immigration is one of fairness. There are those who wait in line for years to get into this country legally. The argument is that why should hispanics get special treatment simply because they live next door to us?
I agree that the legal eagles often get the shaft while the illegals get traipse on through and even be granted immunity for breaking our own laws. Bizarre. But it isn't an issue of hispanic or non-hispanic. I know there is a considerable amount of hispanics who have gone through all the legal channels. My father's side of the family is inclusive to that. I think with Mexicans in particular is two things. One, they happen to be our neighboring country so there are some physical reasons why they are able to achieve this more easily than, say, an Indonesian. The second reason is that Mexico happens to not have the greatest economy in the world. Canada is our other neighbor but we don't have a problem with Canadians streaming across the border because they have a good economy.
But to reiterate your first point about fairness, I can't say enough about that. I know both an Englishman and a Canadian, who, after years of waiting for their moment to be naturalized, has seen thousands of illegal immigrants being immediately offered immunity. The Englishman served with me in the US Navy with an exemplary record. I mean, he's an upstanding citizen who is caught up in the bureaucratic red tape. Same with the Canadian man. He works for Boeing and has a secret clearance, which obviously is a testament to his character. And they've been less than shy to relay how much it irks them that some people in congress have actually suggested giving illegal aliens their own special drivers license for breaking the law, while these guys, following all the rules get the shaft. What the hell is that all about?

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 130 (384534)
02-11-2007 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by subbie
02-11-2007 8:34 PM


Re: Immigration
Do you have any idea how long legal immigration takes?
On average, about seven years. But here's the thing. You can come here on a visa almost immediately. And if you keep up relations with the INS and are a productive member of society, there is no reason why they won't renew that visa until they are naturalized.
As far at the Minutemen go, I have a few thoughts on them. The name seems chosen to evoke a particular emotional response. Whenever I see something like that, a flag goes up. Obviously they are trying to present a particular image.
The Minutemen of the past, as I'm sure you know, were a militia and self-described patriots. I'm sure the picture that contemporary Minutemen are trying to paint is that they embody the spirit of that same nationalistic fervor.
Are they racist? I have no idea.
I'm sure there are a few that are. But I highly doubt even a considerable minority of them are.
Given the prevalence of racism in this country, I'd be amazed if none of them were.
Do you personally think it would be racist for a Mexican to try and foster support for Aztlan? Or La Raza, which literally means, "The Race"? Is there a double standard?
I'd be willing to bet that at least some of them like to play soldier, too.
I don't doubt that either. My in-laws live in Phoenix, AZ, and when I was last out there, there was a shallow grave found out in the middle of the desert with about 9 Mexican immigrants in it. It was attributed to a White Identity gang out there, but it wouldn't surprise me if a few hardcore nationalists went out in to the sticks with weapons to handle matters for themselves.
I do think that there's little difference between anti-immigration sentiment that's flourishing today and what we have seen several times in the nation's past.
In what way?
Back in the late 1980s when I took an immigration law class, I seem to recall that the government wasn't even accepting certain types of visa applications from Mexico. If that's still the case, then that means that the vast majority of people in Mexico cannot even apply for legal immigration to the U.S.
I don't know what is going on between Vicente Fox and George Bush, but Bush is real lax on the issue which tells me that there is some politicking going on behind the scenes. Bush is clearly trying to play both sides of the field. I also know that Fox and the Mexican government want more Mexicans to go to America so it can alleviate some its own concerns and economic problems. He's been a fair-weather friend to be sure and he isn't interested in our policies. As far Mexicans not allowed to have visas is not true at all because I have quite a few friends whose families came here legally.
It's always easy to criticize someone for breaking the law. For a closet bigot, it's a way to rationalize prejudice and feel good about one's self. Please do not assume that I am suggesting that you are a bigot, nem, I am not. I'm simply pointing out that falling back on the illegal aspect of the immigration is an easy out for those who are looking for one if they don't know all the facts.
But see, the whole race issue is a non-issue. That isn't the problem. That's just a strawman being used, in my opinion. The issue is that too many illegal immigrants are streaming across the border and sucking up resources that are supposed to be for the American citizen of all races and prior nationalities. It would be the same if Canadians en mass were coming to America. All that matters is American corporations are hiring illegal Mexicans and paying them a pittance for a wage, which is not only criminal, but immoral. Secondly, they are taking jobs away from all Americans. The northern states, but particularly the Northeastern states have no clue about what its like in the Southwestern states. All I can say is that its a real problem, but it doesn't have to be.
I do think that border security is a problem. With so many people coming across the border every day, it's much easier for someone with evil on his mind to get into the country undetected.
Absolutely. If an extremely malnourished and dehydrated Mexican can make it over with no problem, there is no telling how easy it would be for a well-funded operative to come over here and wreak havoc in San Diego, Los Angeles, Phoenix, Tuscon, Albuquerque, El Paso, etc...
Our southern border is like a leaky dam. It seems to me that there are two ways to fix the problem. One would be to try to plug the holes. But it's a long, long border, and that option just doesn't seem feasible to me. The other is to take the pressure off. One way to do that is, as brenna suggested, make things at home less hopeless. The other way, as I see it, is to open the gates and let more of the people in legally. I really believe that most of the people who come here want to do it legally, they just have few, if any, options to do so.
While I agree that stopping 12 illegal immigrants only ensures that 150 make it across successfully, letting people through would not make others want to stop. That's absurd. More and more people would come because la migra isn't watching them anymore. Resources would evaporate and the economy would plummet. Next thing you know, Mexicans and Americans are streaming over Canadian borders to get a piece of the pie over there which would in turn severely affect the global market. the value of the US dollar would be trashed and we might never recover.
Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : add link

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by subbie, posted 02-11-2007 8:34 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by subbie, posted 02-11-2007 11:17 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 130 (384602)
02-12-2007 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by subbie
02-11-2007 11:17 PM


Re: Immigration
quote:
On average, about seven years. But here's the thing. You can come here on a visa almost immediately. And if you keep up relations with the INS and are a productive member of society, there is no reason why they won't renew that visa until they are naturalized.
I'm not sure that's true, do you have a source?
According to the INS website, you have to qualify. The easiest way to see if anyone is wasting their time is taking a quiz. Contingent upon the reasons for why you want to come, what you plan to do, etc, will determine the expediency of the process. For instance, students are readily granted visa's to be educated in the United States.
Everyone always thinks the latest wave of immigration is going to take their jobs, lower their standard of living and try to change our country into the one they came from. And everyone is always wrong.
Let me explain what is happening. I assume that you live in Minnesota. Is that a correct assessment? In places like Texas, Oklahoma, California, Arizona, New Mexico, etc, its a big problem in a few industries, but none more noticeable than in construction. Here's how it works. A contractor wants to build a new subdivision. In order to make that happen, they are going to need subcontractors. You need framers, people to do post and beam, carpenters, plumbers, finish carpenters, HVAC guys, electricians, etc. Now, for each of these facets of home building there are enumerable companies competing for the contract. So the bidding begins. Naturally, the contract usually goes to the lowest proficient bidder. They often hire illegal aliens for the job because they will work for nothing, but they will usually do a good job. When the immigrants make enough money, because they've run the other subcontractors out of business, they can usually then to run their own operation. Who do they hire? Do they hire the proficient from all walks of life? Not any crews that I've seen. The immigrants typically hire within their community, something that would be social heresy for an American.
In Portland, there are two main groups who have managed to do quite well for themselves in the construction industry. Its Russians and Mexicans. They only hire people of their own background. Now, on one end of the spectrum we can say, oh well, that's how capitalism works. On the other end of the spectrum, numerous laws are being broken to make this happen which nullifies the capitalist argument. Meanwhile, many Americans are out of work and won't be hired because they are white or black Americans. Then begins the animosity. And if the white and black Americans complain that they are being targets of racism, the complaint alone lands them the smear of being branded racists themselves. How the hell does that work???? Somebody please tell me.
quote:
It would be the same if Canadians en mass were coming to America.
I doubt that. While I'm not sure that race is playing a factor for most people, I do believe it is playing for a significant percentage. And, for those for whom it is playing a factor, it makes their opposition much fiercer than it otherwise would be.
Are Russians hispanic??? No. That's because the issue isn't about race, its about people taking jobs from people who are entitled to work here legally. Its not about race, dude, it really isn't. Therefore, if Canadians came here en mass it would be the same kind of animosity. And vice versa, if Americans started coming up to Canada or down in Mexico en mass it would be the same for both countries. That's because no country wants their job market swamped. Its bad for the economy and bad for their countrymen.
Resources would evaporate and the economy would plummet. Next thing you know, Mexicans and Americans are streaming over Canadian borders to get a piece of the pie over there which would in turn severely affect the global market.
Letting more in would not make others want to stop, but it would significantly reduce the pressure to come in illegally.
How does that work? If they don't have to go through any legal channels why would they? At least with the Border Patrol, ICE, and INS, there are thousands of new jobs available which is great for the economy. New jobs means a stronger economy. Now, imagine how many displaced Americans there would be if you single handedly did away with those jobs. Meanwhile, the illegal immigrants are getting all the jobs. You might as well start calling the United States, Aztlan at that point.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by subbie, posted 02-11-2007 11:17 PM subbie has replied

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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 130 (384661)
02-12-2007 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Omnivorous
02-11-2007 9:53 PM


Re: Immigration
We need the labor that Mexico, Central, and South America can provide. They need work.
We need the work! Especially when big corporations are already sending US jobs overseas or to Mexico, Central, and South America. We need the work.
They are, frankly, in greater proportions than our existing population, hard-working, honest people.
You couldn't possibly make this generalization about all Mexicans any more than someone saying they are all thieving liars.
The primary opposition to their presence here is racist and xenophobic, waxing and waning with the electoral cycle.
That's an unfair and slanderous mischaracterization. It has far less to do with race or xenophobia than it has to do with dollars and cents, or perhaps even dollars and sense.
They are our neighbors--why should we look further, to nations more distant and cultures even more distantly related to our own, for the labor (and taxpayers) we need?
Because "illegal" immigrants don't pay taxes. Legal immigrants do, which everyone is all for.
In many cases, the economies of their home countries are unable to provide them with a decent living because their traditional ways of life have been discarded for extractive and exploitative resource and agribusiness endeavors that feed rootless, globalized corporations.
Then why not place just as much blame on the leaders of their country? Fox doesn't want to help us. The Mexican military even escorts drug runners and smuggles in illegals so it will free up their own economic burden.
I agree with you that its a bunch of bs that some of these big corporations are exploiting the worker who is just trying to earn a decent wage. But we at least have laws for them. Reagan even tried to give the aliens amnesty in exchange for turning over the corporations. Unfortunately, that flopped like every other plan thus far, as you'll see in this humorous little clip.
In many cases, they don't come here looking for a better life but rather any life at all. They come here because there is no longer a life worth living where they were--sometimes because our "banana/beef" plantations destroyed their traditional, sustainable ways of life, sometimes because we supported the death-squad militarist son of a bitch who bankrupted their nation and polity.
Uh.... huh? I'm not familiar with this. Can you share a little bit more about how America is yet again to blame for the failures of other countries?
quote:
In fact, there are a lot of countries with more restrictive policies--just about the entire first world, come to think of it--whose immigration policies range from the sensible, to the excessively restrictive, to the downright xenophobic. Why does America get singled out?
Because I am a U.S. citizen. I bear moral, ethical and political responsibility for those policies I advocate, those I tolerate, and the consequences of my opposition to others.
So instead you advocate a policy that would ensure that everyone is equally miserable? The problem is that no nation on earth can sustain a massive influx of people, many of whom, are not paying in to the system. In other words, they are benefiting by breaking the law, where law abiding citizens are either harangued or cajoled in to giving up their own rights as citizens. Gene has a point. Doesn't every nation have this rationale? If so, why the singling out of America who has been extremely liberal on the issue for more than three decades now?
Oh my, this guy is pissed
Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : Added another link
Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : fixed link
Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : edit to add

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Omnivorous, posted 02-11-2007 9:53 PM Omnivorous has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by jar, posted 02-12-2007 4:40 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 130 (384695)
02-12-2007 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by macaroniandcheese
02-12-2007 1:00 AM


Re: Immigration
quote:
Good post, Brenna.
i think i'm going to have a heart attack.
Don't implode just yet... I'm sure we can find things to disagree about
someone from mexico now, because of his experiences with the corrupt mexican police, might be less likely to trust our legal system... especially when people tend to target him because he looks "illegal".
Its pretty simple for them and they ALL know the drill. No Green Card, no stay. When I used to do HVAC out at the subdivisions, there is a few times we needed to go down in the crawl space. On a couple occasions I found 10-15 Mexicans huddled up, gesturing me to "shush" because they thought the INS were roving around. It turned out to be the Code Enforcement Inspectors who's job deals with building codes. The point is that they know what's going on.
quote:
Why this singling out?
because 1. we generally are more likely to target people based on race.
By what estimation?
2. we live here. other countries have just as much debate over immigration laws, but we don't hear about it, because it doesn't generally concern us.
Right, that's what I'm saying. Every country is entitled to securing its borders. Why are some Americans so grossly interested in making sure we are seen as the scourge of the earth, when in reality, we have some of the most liberal enforcement of laws concerning illegal immigration?
3. for so long, we had almost completely open borders and the promise of a perfect life here makes people think it should be easier to get in.
Do you think the nation could sustain itself if every single person that wanted to move here could do so? It would very quickly go from a great nation for immigrants to a pot to piss in for every one. There has to be moderation and there has to be accountability. We can't just fling open the doors for any and all people. The only people that I know of that can circumvent the current system is defectors of countries where there are brutal dictatorships. In South Florida, circa 1960's - 1980's, America gave such amnesty to those fleeing Cuba. But I don't need to tell you about that. You live there.
our laws are inconstistent and often clearly racist.
Inconsistent, without question, but how can you honestly say "racist" when the Attorney General is a Mexican American??? One of the main guy's stifling illegal immigration is a Mexican. Its not about race, its about economy. I think people opposing illegal immigration could make a better case against the US by saying that its only concerned with money than you could by saying that its all about race.
further, the ways people want to "fix" the illegal immigration problems are unreasonable and short-sighted. if we're so worried about terrorists, why aren't we building a wall between here and canada? because we're not.
An excellent question. And I agree that alot of Americans are being short-sighted about the whole thing. The reality about the "wall" is that its a waste of time and tax dollars. The US borders between Canada and Mexico is about 4,000 miles. That's just too vast to do anything. If we were living in feudal China it would be great, but times are different now. They've already uncovered a tunnel that was dug something like 30 miles that began in Tijuana and ended up inside a San Diego auto shop. Anyone could do that again. Secondly, if a determined terrorist really wanted to, all one would have to do is get a hand on some plastic explosives and punch a hole in the wall that is most undermanned. Lastly, how easy is it just to take a boat from, say, Angel Island, Mexico, and land in Baja California? Walls just won't work.
we're concerned with brown people taking our majority. why do we only have a wet-foot/dry-foot policy for cubans who risk political persectution if they are forced to return home but not hatians who face similar fears in their troubled home?
When I lived in Miami I thought that was a pretty messed up policy too. The excuse they gave was that Haitans are not political refugees, but Cubans are. The reality, I'm willing to bet, is that on average, Cubans have been very successful and have brought in beau coup bucks, whereas Haitans have not nearly attributed as much. Little Havana is the barrio of the Cubans, but there is no counting how many rich Cubans live in Coral Gables, Coconut Grove, Kendall, Miami Beach, North Beach, Bal Harbor, Boca Raton, West Palm, Ft. Lauderdale, etc, etc. Haitans are pretty much confined to Little Haiti. So, I agree with you that its a poor policy going on down there.
this may seem cynical and even doubtful, but it's the obvious reality. our policies are questioned because they are racist (even if they are not racially motivated... which um. i think they probably are.)
This is how I think the racial animosity has started between anglo Americans and Mexican immigrants. At first Mexicans came over in small numbers. Nobody really cared. I doubt they were like, "OMG, brown people!" But over the last few decades it has become more prevalent to the point where there are so many illegal Mexican immigrants that the Americans are getting really pissed off that jobs are being lost to people that come to the country, don't have the decency to do so legally and don't have the decency to even try to speak the language. And then what didn't start out as an issue of race becomes an issue of race because race is an identifier of people. And so for some Americans, they simply grouped anyone that looked like a Mexican, they prejudged them on how they look, assuming that they must all be like the one's they've come across.
The same applied to the Mexican population. They prejudged their anglo counterparts as being these snobbish, self-serving sycophants who looked down on them. And everyone with white skin was basically assimilated in to that. And so, we have animosity that appears to be racially motivated.
Is that predominantly the issue? I don't think so. I think Mexicans want to come here for a better way of life, which, for face value, no one can blame them. And for Americans, I think they generally want to help people, but not at the risk of them taking advantage if someone's kindness, or at the risk of losing their own rights to give to someone who has no legal entitlement that comes along with being a citizen.
Does that sound like a fair assessment?
we have a right to control our borders, and fuck anyone who says otherwise. but we have a responsibility to make sure our laws are reasonable, efficient, and just and support the principles of the rights which we grant to our citizens.
Fair enough. That sounds reasonable.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by macaroniandcheese, posted 02-12-2007 1:00 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by macaroniandcheese, posted 02-12-2007 6:53 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 130 (384712)
02-12-2007 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by jar
02-12-2007 4:40 PM


Re: Illegal Immigrants Pay Taxes
quote:
Because "illegal" immigrants don't pay taxes.
I'm sorry but that is simply false.
Paying "sales" tax when you purchase items does not constitute paying taxes. How can you pay taxes when you aren't even on file with the IRS? Can't fill out a W-2 without a Social Security card. Can't be taxed without a W-2.... So, I'm wrong how? People payed under the table don't pay taxes, which is why the IRS looks for companies who do this.
If someone told you that they were lying.
Its common sense.
If you repeat it after this you will be lying.
You haven't substantiated how illegal aliens pay taxes.
It is also a very, very stupid thing to say.
Don't hold back for me Jar. Tell me how you really feel.
When an illegal immigrant buys something they pay the same sales tax as anyone else.
How did I know you were going to bring that up? "Sales" tax is a pittance to the IRS. That is not "paying you taxes." Ever heard of someone going to prison for "sales tax evasion?"
When they rent a place to live, part of that rent goes to pay the same taxes as paid by any other renter.
Again, a pittance and something they can't avoid, just like all sales tax. Paying your taxes means that deductions are taken out of your paycheck. If you are getting payed under the table, you aren't paying your taxes, which means you are getting all these great benefits that legal Americans have to "pay" into in order to receive.
If they have power, they pay the same taxes anyone else who has power pays.
What? If they have power? Are you talking about political clout or are you talking about electricity?
If they have a phone, they pay the same phone tax as anyone else.
Paying what is included in the bill is actually you paying the phone company to pay its own taxes.
If they register their car, they pay the same property tax as anyone else does.
How can you register your car if you're not a citizen? How can you get a driver's license if you aren't a citizen? Don't you need at least two forms of identification and a bill establishing a legal residence? Now, I would agree that many illegals have found a way of getting around it illegally. That's another issue all in itself.
Many companies withhold income taxes and FICA on illegal workers just as they do for a legal worker.
Yeah right! So they tell the Federal Government, "Hey, I have a bunch of illegal immigrants working for me, but I just wanted you to know that I've taken the liberty of deducting what I thought should be the deductions you would ordinarily deduct had they been legal." ???
Illegal immigrants pay taxes.
No, they don't.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by jar, posted 02-12-2007 4:40 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by subbie, posted 02-12-2007 7:33 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 50 by Dan Carroll, posted 02-12-2007 7:54 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 51 by jar, posted 02-12-2007 8:01 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 130 (384739)
02-12-2007 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by macaroniandcheese
02-12-2007 6:53 PM


Re: Immigration
quote:
Don't implode just yet... I'm sure we can find things to disagree about
there's always abortion.
There ya go. We always have that.
i was kind of referring to even legal immigrants might take issue with or avoid our police because of their experience with the polic at home. also, in jupiter, just north of here, the cops purposely pull over the guatemalans and try to get them in trouble, even though they're legal.
Nobody seems to like Guatemalans or Nicaraguans... I've even heard quite a few Puerto Ricans, Venezuelans, Cubans, and Mexicans loving refer to them as "spear chuckers."
As for the Jupiter PD, what exactly do they do and how do they know how to target specifically Guatemalans?
quote:
By what estimation?
you're kidding, right? do you see anyone stop a swede on the street and ask for their green card? no. just mexicans.
That's because we don't have a Swedish illegal immigration problem. Its not a race issue. How many Americans had a problem with the Irish? Damn near all of them had a problem with it. Its not race, its who is coming over in droves. Mexicans just so happen to be the one's coming over in droves. If Canadians were doing it too, I have no doubt that there would be all kinds of disparaging jokes about Canadians.... (as if there aren't enough Canadian jokes as is).
did i say we should have open borders? i said we used to and people got used to it.
I'm sure soldiers get used to being shot at too, but it doesn't make it any better for them.
dear god, don't get me started on the fucking cubans.
Hey, my niece and nephew are Cuban-Americans. Leave them out of it.
you know why the dictatorship is still standing?
Because Castro didn't try to bomb us.
because our expatriate enforced embargos have created an environment in which it's easy to say that america is the evil. they also have not produced any meaningful change in how castro misused his available resources.
I'm not sure I understand your objection here. When the USSR fell, so did Cuba by extension. They no longer posed a threat, but we still have an embargo on them. And to add, when the Cold War was running strong we did try to take him out. There were about 4 assassination attempts on the man's life that all failed. Now he doesn't pose a threat. If we went in militarily now we'd denounced.... again.... for the umteenth time.
of course he'd dead now.
What? No he didn't. I mean, he's about to die. But he's still kickin'.
quote:
but how can you honestly say "racist" when the Attorney General is a Mexican American??? One of the main guy's stifling illegal immigration is a Mexican.
congratulations. i have friends who are black. i invited a few tokens to my mlkjday party. but no mexicans are gonna be at my cinco de mayo party. they might take my job.
So you think that Alberto Gonzales is just the "token Mexican guy?" What about Condi? What about Obama? Could it be that they are qualified for their jobs?
opposing illegal immigration is about money. however, the way our laws are built allows different groups more entrance and allows different levels of amnesty based on nothing legitimate. hatians live in constant turmoil and yet we have no amnesty program like we have for the cuban rafters.
Well, we did go in to Haiti in '95 to quell the violence there.
the solutions our "tough on immigration" politicians come up with are crap. someone else suggested that we get tough on companies that hire illegals. that's a good plan. but it'll never get through the business lobby.
I think a quick fix is to "actually" get tough on it. Every President, from Carter to Bush Jr has not really been serious on the issue. And if they actually went after the businesses that exploit these men and women, we might actually have something to show for it. And then they'd have to wait like everybody else from every other nation to do it legally.
we could start discussing hiring descrimination here. i can tell you where the hatians work and where the cubans work. but that's way off-topic.
My Mom works with Haitans and Cubans...? But even still, lets not pretend that Cubans are often more in prestigious places of works whereas the Haitans are not.
i think it's more that they're living in different areas. also, like i said before, hispanic immigrants learn the language at the same rate as all other immigrants to this country have. it's hard to learn your first foreign language at 30. do you speak another language?
I used to be fluent in Spanish growing up, but I'm losing it. I now have what I call "Resturant Spanish" where I know enough to order a meal and have a small dialogue. And even then I have to search my brain for the appropriate words.
To be fair, the English language is a difficult language. But it isn't impossible. And for their own sake and sanity, immigrants going into any new home with a foreign language is better off trying to learn it. The thing about America is, like in Phoenix, Miami, Houston, Los Angeles, etc, there are enough spanish speakers in those cities where they don't ever have to learn. A good friend of mine's grandmother has been living in this country for like 30 friggin years and my Spanish is way better than her English. And to add insult to injury her son-in-law owns a company named "Ahora Ingles" which teaches spanish speakers English via CD's and cassettes. I think this typifies what I've been saying.
and they assume they're all illegal.
Who is they?
my roommate's boss asked a job candidate a couple weeks ago when he could provide documentation to work in this country. he's from puerto rico.
Doesn't every employer do that to every applicant? That's one of the first questions I've come across on applications. A social security number is usually all that is needed.
they come here legally or not and what kind of jobs can they get? nannies, yard help, day laborers, cleaners... dirty, unrespected jobs for dirty, unrespected people.
They get jobs like everyone else. You have to start at the bottom. If you want to get around doing the grunt work, you have to have a college education. One could make an argument about discrimination more easily for employers that demand a college education than race. Are you saying that uneducated, poor white man can get a high level job more easily than an articulate educated Mexican?
who says they're going to lose their rights?
Me and about 80 million Americans say that.
more workers and more consumers is good for the economy.
That's like saying more gun powder is good for a bullet. There is such a thing called "excess." People that aren't working only means one of two things. They are either too lazy to work or can't find work. The Portland unemployment rate is at 6.8% which is actually a drop from 9.0% only a couple of years ago. There aren't enough jobs as it is. Of course, demographics play a huge role in that. But for the most part, adding more people to the equation with not enough jobs is making a difference. The construction business is the one thing where Portland excels in. The real estate market in Oregon is one of the only states with a good market. But like I shared earlier, legitimate businesses are being underbid by cookie cutter construction crews that higher illegal immigrants. So its peaches and cream for someone not even allowed to work here, but law abiding citizens get the short end of the stick.
there are no limited quantity of jobs that get handed out on a first come, first serve basis for these people to "steal" from us.
I can't completely blame illegal immigrants for trying to make their lives better for themselves and their families. I mean, its not like they're out there going, "Haha, take that gringo!" I blame activists and I blame Congress for not doing enough about it. So, no, I don't think illegal immigrants are "stealing" jobs away from Americans. I think the companies that harbor them are. And quite frankly they are too stupid to realize that they are cinching their own noose.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by macaroniandcheese, posted 02-12-2007 6:53 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by macaroniandcheese, posted 02-13-2007 1:11 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 130 (384850)
02-13-2007 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by subbie
02-12-2007 7:33 PM


Re: Illegal Immigrants Pay Taxes
They pay sales taxes.
They pay real estate taxes.
They pay taxes for electricity.
They pay taxes for telephone service.
Because these are included in the price of what ever they are trying to purchase. Pretty much no one can get around that. Its not exactly a virtue to pay a sales tax.
Would it really be all that difficult for you to admit you misspoke, and that what you meant to say was that they don't pay income taxes?
When somebody says "paying your taxes" they are invariably speaking about state and federal taxes that they have to file each year. This is when people get audited, when fines are issued, when prison sentences are carried out because people have either evaded their obligation or they have manipulated the figures in an attempt to trick the IRS.
I didn't misspeak. I very clearly said that illegal aliens don't pay in to the services that legal people do. What services do you get for including a two dollar increase on a shirt that costs thirty dollars? Does that go to pay for road maintenance? How about hospitals? Social services? No, none of that. The consumer is basically paying what that store owes on its taxes. And that's something that is unavoidable because its included automatically.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by subbie, posted 02-12-2007 7:33 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by nator, posted 02-13-2007 10:13 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied
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 Message 81 by jar, posted 02-13-2007 10:31 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied
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 Message 89 by macaroniandcheese, posted 02-13-2007 9:01 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 130 (384851)
02-13-2007 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Dan Carroll
02-12-2007 7:54 PM


Re: Illegal Immigrants Pay Taxes
quote:
Ever heard of someone going to prison for "sales tax evasion?"
Ten seconds on google before you speak would make you sound a lot less ridiculous.
Way to completely manipulate the context. We're talking about consumers that have an illegal resident status, not the owners of business. When you, as the consumer pay a sales tax, that money is not the property of the store owner, its the property of the Federal government. If the owner of the store pockets that money that is rightfully the government's, they will likely go to prison.
Since we are clearly talking about illegal immigrants as the consumer, your link bears no reflection, whatsoever, to the story.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Dan Carroll, posted 02-12-2007 7:54 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Dan Carroll, posted 02-13-2007 10:52 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 83 of 130 (384905)
02-13-2007 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by jar
02-12-2007 8:01 PM


Re: Illegal Immigrants Pay Taxes
I feel like Re: Illegal Immigrants Pay Taxes (Message 48) is the most wonderful example of the total bankruptcy of thought I have ever read.
*shrugs*
Taxes nj.
Sales taxes.
Use taxes.
Property taxes.
Excise taxes.
Jar, even if you introduced this pittance to the equation, which is so utterly specious, the fact remains that ALL LEGAL AMERICAN citizens HAVE to pay ALL of their taxes. Why, then, do some people get to be REWARDED for breaking the laws, while law abiding citizens get the short end of the stick? It sure would be nice for everyone not to have any deductions on their W-2's, which would make W-4's pointless. Illegal immigrants don't pay taxes, Jar. And if you consider things, like sales tax, which is automatically provided at the cash register, paying taxes, I don't know what to tell you. That isn't "paying your taxes."
You yourself note that all is needed is a drivers license and id. What makes you think illegals cannot get either a drivers license or id? And to register a car, you need a bill of sale. That's it.
Because to get a drivers license means that you have to provide proof of citizenship and proof of residence. I agree that some aliens have found ways around it, be it forgery or falsified documents, but it isn't legal. And I would even agree that if some illegal immigrants found a way to circumvent the system and became, what appeared to the average person as them being legal, they might then legally pay taxes. But this is the exception, not the rule.
The fact is that many employers simply steal the money. The illegals still pay the taxes, the employer simply keeps the money and does not turn it in to the government.
Please substantiate your ad hoc explanation that employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants "deduct" taxes from migrants. They pay them, what, 3 dollars an hour, and then on top of that, deduct taxes? What do they take out? Are these farmers also accountants who keep up with the average taxation laws? When they turn in this money to the government and the government asks who these mystery people are with no social security numbers are, do they tell the government, "oh I hired some illegal aliens. But please, don't say anything to INS."
That's absolutely absurd Jar.
Honestly, America has had an immigrant problem since 1607.
You can alleviate some of those problems by deporting yourself then. We'll follow your lead boss.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by jar, posted 02-12-2007 8:01 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 130 (385131)
02-14-2007 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by macaroniandcheese
02-13-2007 1:11 AM


Re: Immigration
i had a friend in undergrad who had a really shity pickup. he'd get pulled over once a week by the cops and when they'd walk up to the window, they'd say "oh. we thought you were one of the guats."
it's anecdotal, but it happened a lot.
Ah, I see. Well, it is illegal to pull someone over without probable cause. And if the cop actually said that, you or your friend might want to consider reporting that to the Chief of Police. We all know that profiling goes on. But what most cops do if they suspect something awry, they look for some minor thing to pull you over-- say, a broken tail light, going 5-10 miles over the limit, improper lane change-- basically anything in order to make the stop legally. What they are really trying to do is see if you have any warrants or if you have a shady character. Its legal, but it isn't. Anyway, at least the cop could have been a little more slick about it. He sounds too stupid for that kind of work.
but the terrorists all came through canada. why are we worried about people just trying to work when there are terrorists out there?
I think they are concerned with all the borders. Though it is a legitimate argument, there is a bit of a strawman being used there. Yes, terrorists coming through the borders, either border, is a concern. But they shouldn't use that to conflate the issue of terrorism and illegal migration. Both are illegal in their own rights.
my boyfriends step siblings are cuban-polish. it's not about the "race", it's the politics i'm bothered by.
Everybody is bothered by the politics. Even politicians. Even politicians that don't like the "politics" of politics can't help being sucked in to the vortex. Unfortunately, that's the nature of the beast. I can't handle that nature, which is why I have no aspiration to be a politician.
no, didn't we get a president killed over something about cuba? i kid.
Well, Castro overthrew Batista. Then again, Batista overthrew the government before him. If there were any successful assassinations, I'm not aware of them. As an interesting side note: Batista's son literally lives right across the street from parents house. We didn't really get along because band practice was almost always at my house.... We played hardcore and death metal. I'm sure you can see why we didn't see eye to eye in those days.
but the embargos have clearly failed to weaken his hold on cuba, which they were designed to do. they've also made us look no better.
I don't think we consider it a failure. The only reason they survive today is because they import from European and South American countries. *cough -Venezuela- cough*. The interesting thing about Cuba today is that it looks exactly like it did in the 1950's-60's. Almost every vehicle is a 50's era American car. The reason they don't drive newer cars is because of the embargo and because they don't have the money for decent cars.
so they say. i haven't seen him since, what? october?
I don't think he's dead. I checked Wiki to see, but if he did, they haven't updated his death. He's sick and he's old. There's no doubt that he's going to die soon. But last I heard, he's still alive.
i'm saying they agree with the people who hired them. just because a policy is not intended to be racist does not mean it isn't. separate but equal was ruled to be just but was later ruled to be unequal.
That's how I feel about it affirmative action. It isn't supposed to be racist, but it is against all parties involved.
get tough on people who give jobs to illegals. that will help. building a wall, shooting people on the border, will not.
I agree. Its a tough issue because no one can blame them for just trying to have a better way off the life. The problem is, when populations swell out of control, jobs start evaporating and the economy gets in serious trouble. Its a chain reaction. The Census Bureau projects that if illegal immigration continues as it has been, by 2050 the US population will be 420 million. We're already at 300 million.
So who do you blame? Obviously its the people hiring them. Would they stay here if they couldn't find any work? Nope... The problem is those who harbor them.
how exactly does providing more workers and more consumers reduce your rights? just because you're paranoid, doesn't make you right.
Its not paranoia, its reality. More workers for not enough jobs. Who do the jobs go to? The lowest bidder. Can Americans survive on the wages earned by many illegal households? Nope. Americans can't survive on minimum wage salaries. So how do the Mexicans do it? They often live in communal living conditions. Is that conducive to a healthy lifestyle? I don't think so. Should Americans be forced to change their way of life just to accommodate someone else? Why? This is our home. Imagine Americans coming en masse and just disrespecting someone else's homeland and taking their jobs.
Most Americans are very far removed from the way it really is. Until they know what living in the heart of a place like Los Angeles is like, which is a tinderbox, they can't appreciate what it really means. They haven't a clue. They hear about it on CNN and formulate opinions based on the information relayed from them, but this pales in comparison for those who live it every day.
excess people working the blueberry fields in maine? i've worked there, i promise, there's not any excess in migrant farm work.
New England is the last place that isn't totally inundated by migrant workers. Give it time. It will happen. Migrant workers, both legal and illegal are competing for work.
excess in janitors? really? cause everyone in america wants to clean toilets at walmart.
It doesn't matter if they want to. They might have to. There have been times where I've worked some pretty bad jobs because I needed to. When you are in between jobs you have to do what you have to do. Some people have no transferable skills. That's their lot in life, whether they want it or not.
not enough jobs in big cities of migrant labor? honestly. show me that the unemployment is not related to shifting industries. so the car companies have moved to mexico from detroit.
Detroit is in very serious trouble as a city, but I attribute that to failing industry and mismanagement. This
article asserts that for the first time in a long time that citizens employment rate is higher than illegal immigrants. Failing industry is also to blame. For instance, if Ford doesn't figure out something soon they're going to go under. In fact, every car sold in 2007 goes to paying off a debt. The entire 2007 catalog is a profit loss. They are buying people out of jobs. That's thousands of Americans out of work who will be competing for work. Ford isn't the only car company suffering major setbacks. Chrysler is now set to let go of a few thousand workers.
you are aware that illegal immigrants are underpaid and ill-treated and sometimes forced to work without pay because they have no recourse? are you going to say they deserve to be taken advantage of?
Of course not. That's another thing that really angers me about the whole situation. They exploit these people. You have to go after the businesses that hire and harbor these men and women because they are abusing them and they have almost the entirety to blame for problems associated with illegal immigration. Companies that do that do this should pay steep fines in order to stem the flow.
because they don't want to pay the minimum wage that citizens and legals can fight for. it's pure and simple injustice.
That's exactly what it is.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by macaroniandcheese, posted 02-13-2007 1:11 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by macaroniandcheese, posted 02-14-2007 11:19 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
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