Who has the best avatar?

quote:

---

Neither is the armor that she is wearing particularly femmy.

​

Sure it is. Yeah, it's not a mail bikini, but it's rather ornate and decorated.

---

Yes, it's ornate. So was what gladiators and roman troops on parade wore:Even ignoring that armor itself is rather butch (it implies a more aggressive, tough person), the decor is not feminine.

quote:

---

quote:

---

The woman in the picture is quite butch.

---

​

Are you kidding? She's an elf!

---

... and?

quote:

---

if anything she's pretty femme. Even short hair wouldn't make her butch.

---

You've got to be kidding. A female warrior, clad in full armor and in combat, not butch?

quote:

---

She looks way more like Anne Heche than Ellen DeGeneres. Femme, totally. Honestly I just don't see how you can look at that picture and see a mannish woman.

---

Gee, could it possibly be the full body armor, the taking part in physical combat... what's next, are you going to describe female weight lifters as being femmes?

quote:

---

I see a feminine warrior

---

That's almost an oxymoron. Feminine != aggressive. Warriors are aggressive.

quote:

---

in feminine armor.

---

You probably think that the Romans were flaming, then.------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."[This message has been edited by Rei, 12-02-2003]

Of course. Why would wearing armor affect your charisma score?If you put Nicole Kidman in goalie's gear, she doesn't get butch. If you put Tyne Daly in a sundress, she's still butch. Butchness isn't what you're wearing. It's what you look like. Duh. No. Are you going to describe all female athletes as being butch? That's kind of what it comes down to. Where I'm from, women can put on armor, bend a bow, and wield a sword, and there's nothing especially butch about it. Not where I'm from. Maybe the ladies are a little tougher here in Minnesota. Why, nipples on the armor and such? Maybe I'm not a person that makes sweeping generalizations about people's sexuality based on what they're wearing? Just a thought.

quote:

---

quote:

---

You've got to be kidding. A female warrior, clad in full armor and in combat, not butch?

---

​

Of course. Why would wearing armor affect your charisma score?

---

Ah. So, to you, butch is some sort of degrading term.

quote:

---

If you put Nicole Kidman in goalie's gear, she doesn't get butch.

---

She becomes more butch in appearence. Look, do you know what "butch" means? A woman dresses in a dress with long hair and a purse, she's going to look femmy. A woman dresses in work jeans, a white undershirt and a flannel, she's going to look butch. Anywhere in between, you'll probably end up with a bit of a soft butch.OOC, have you ever been to a gay club, or hung out with any lesbians or F2Ms?

quote:

---

quote:

---

Gee, could it possibly be the full body armor, the taking part in physical combat... what's next, are you going to describe female weight lifters as being femmes?

---

​

No. Are you going to describe all female athletes as being butch?

---

Athleticism is one thing that makes a person appear more butch. Short hair is another. Style of dress is another. There are many traits that lead to a person looking butch.And, contrary to what you're considering, the appearance of the face is not among them (unless the woman is using makeup or something, which is extremely femmy). Many butch gals have quite attractive faces.

quote:

---

That's kind of what it comes down to. Where I'm from, women can put on armor, bend a bow, and wield a sword, and there's nothing especially butch about it.

---

(sarcasm)Odd, I've never been out of this solar system. (/sarcasm)Seriously, though, to remain appearing equally femmy in full armor and wielding a sword, you'd need to hold the sword like you're afraid of it, and wear low cut armor, have long hair flowing out the back, etc to compensate. "Butch" appearence involves outward features and actions that are stereotypically masculine. Armor and weaponry is most definitely a stereotypically masculine trait (even more than short hair, really). Would you consider a woman wearing a tuxedo still equally femmy? What about one working on a transmission? These are all butch things. And again, I have to emphasize: Butch is not an insult! And a woman who normally behaves or appears quite feminine can behave or appear butch from time to time - few people remain *completely* pigeonholed into a stereotype.

quote:

---

quote:

---

Feminine != aggressive.

---

​

Not where I'm from. Maybe the ladies are a little tougher here in Minnesota.

---

*blink* *blink*Since when is "aggressiveness" considered a feminine trait anywhere in the US?

quote:

---

quote:

---

You probably think that the Romans were flaming, then.

---

​

Why, nipples on the armor and such? Maybe I'm not a person that makes sweeping generalizations about people's sexuality based on what they're wearing? Just a thought.

---

I wasn't accusing you of that - you're (probably inadvertently) changing the direction of conversation . I'll restate, in a direct question: Just a second ago you were arguing that elaborate, ornate armor is feminine. Now your stance is...?------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."[This message has been edited by Rei, 12-02-2003]

Brian responds to me:First, a clarification. Brian quotes me as saying: I did not say that last.

quote:

---

I do not see the word ‘Gay’ as being offensive, and gay people don’t either, apparently only you do.

---

(*sigh*)Logical error: Equivocation.The use of the word "gay" as a descriptor is not the same use of the word "gay" as an insult.You do understand the difference between saying, "I am gay," and, "That's so gay," yes?In the former, there is no indication that there is something wrong with being gay. In the latter, that's the point: There is something wrong with being gay.The problem is not the word in and of itself. It's the usage. Insulting people by calling them "gay" indicates that one thinks that there is something wrong with being gay.Take, for example, the word "crap." It can be a reference to excrement or it can be a reference to a dice game. The word, in and of itself, isn't problematic. The context in which it is used, however, determines the intent.And by the way...what makes you think I'm not gay.

quote:

---

I did not say that the avatar is not the best one ‘because is it a ‘Gay’ knight’, I said it was not the best because the devil child is obviously better.

---

But what was the point in calling it a "gay" knight?The last time I asked you that, you said it was an acronym. What is this acronym?

quote:

---

I did not say it as an insult,

---

Then what was the point in calling it a "gay" knight?

quote:

---

Do you think AZ went running to his mummy crying about someone calling his avatar ‘gay’!

---

Don't be silly.Surely you're not saying that because people can let insults roll off their back that there wasn't an insult in the first place? That because people don't let it get to them that the person doing the obnoxious behaviour wasn't being obnoxious?

quote:

---

Show me a gay person who is offended by the word ‘gay’.

---

What makes you think I'm not gay?Besides, you're committing the same logical error of equivocation.The problem isn't the word. It's the usage."I am gay" does not mean the same thing as "That's so gay!"

quote:

---

quote:

---

Tell us, Brian, why did you bring it up?

---

​

I brought it up because the image is a stereotypical ‘gay’ image.

---

Ri-i-i-i-ight!You really expect us to believe that?Where's the other woman?

quote:

---

Gay is an acronym for ‘Good As You’.

---

Ri-i-i-i-ight!You really expect us to believe that?Hint: I'm not saying you don't do that. I'm questioning whether or not you really expect anybody to believe that.

quote:

---

Does this sound like the opinion of a homophobe?

---

Could be...surely you're not saying that a person who is all for equality under the law couldn't possibly still want to use his personal squick factor without being called on it.

quote:

---

I am implying that the image in the picture is of a gay person

---

And you know that because of what, precisely? Just how many Asian archer-women do you know who wear Valkyrie-style helmets?

quote:

---

quote:

---

What makes you think I'm not gay?

---

​

Would you be offended if someone said you were gay?

---

Depends on how they said it. If they said it out of curiosity or because they just happened to think so, who cares? But if they said it out of some concept that there was something wrong with being gay, then I would be offended...not because I think there's something wrong with being gay but because I'm offended by bigotry.You're committing the same logical error of equivocation. The problem isn't the word. It's the usage.But you haven't answered my question:What makes you think I'm not gay?

quote:

---

it was a description of the image

---

And what, precisely, is "gay" about it?

quote:

---

I called it gay because it is a stereotypical male fantasy lesbian warrior

---

Ri-i-i-i-ight.Where's the other woman in the picture?

quote:

---

I happen to have great admiration for gay people and I totally respect their choice

---

"Choice"?Excuse me?------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

In so much as it can be used to denigrate a woman who doesn't meet society's standards for femininity, yes, it is. I realize that in the GLBT community it's a slang term for lesbians who act "mannish", if you will. I know a few lesbians, but they're not exactly into the whole gay scene. None of them use "butch" and "femme" like you're using. You're either butch, or you're femme. What you're wearing doesn't make a difference. You are aware that there's an international community of mediveal/fantasy reenactors, right? That they don armor, shoot arrows, and swordfight as a matter of course, right? To you, I guess. I don't personally equate "femininity" with "weakness", not even in stereotype. Surely womanhood isn't that simplistic to you? This tuxedo? Or this one? Like I said, in Minnesota, women are assertive, especially to service personel. No, that's always been the point of the debate. Is a woman who wears armor most likely gay? Not on Planet Earth, or any other. Maybe in your world, though. And I still am. But you're trying to imply that only a gay man would wear ornate clothing, or that only a lesbian would wear armor. That's not a position I can agree with.Here's a woman in armor:

Now why don't you call her butch to her face? Don't be surprised if you sprout feathers, though.

Rei responds to me:

quote:

---

the fact that you're offended by the words "dyke" and "fag" (and even brought them up as examples of offensive words) indicates that you are not.

---

Ri-i-i-i-ight.Because "dyke" and "fag" have never been used as insults.Hint: I'm aware of the concept of "in-group" lexicons and "out-group" lexicons and how some people can use certain words without a problem that others cannot. Go see a black stand-up comedian playing to a predominantly black audience, and often you'll hear "nigger" flying around left and right and nobody is getting upset. Everybody understands the context and there is no animosity. Change the context though, and even a black person can't say it without being problematic.You can't seriously be saying that "dyke" and "fag" have no negative connotations. Do I really need to show you the studies that "fag" is one of the most commonly heard taunts among school-aged children?But don't take my word for it: Pennsylvania Newspaper Slams "Fag Forest"That's from a gay news site, "Gay Today." They seem to have an issue with it.And then there's this from GLAAD:Power 105.1 FM New York: And this NY Post Ignores Power of Words: But that's just specific actions against individuals. Here's GLAAD's reference guide they hand out to the media (Defamatory Language to Avoid): Are you telling me that GLAAD isn't representative of any gay people?And let's not forget Dick Armey's infamous "Barney Fag" comment referring to fellow Congressman, Barney Frank, who is openly gay. Surely you aren't saying that there was no malice in that comment, are you?So, since it's been shown that there are gay people who do have a problem with "dyke" and "fag," we're back to my original question:What makes you think I'm not gay?

quote:

---

In case you're not able to see, she is not wearing just a tiny bit of armor, she's covered in heavy armor plating.

---

Yes, I know. The point still remains. She's a character from a fantasy picture. She most likely was not drawn to appeal to lesbians but rather to straight, teenaged boys.

quote:

---

And why are you offended by the words "dyke" and "fag"?

---

Because when they are usually used, they are not meant kindly. Not even among gay people. Oh, the leading of the Pride parade by Dykes on Bikes receives rounds of applause, but listen to those club kids once they make it back to the circuit parties that night and listen to how they use "dyke"...not nearly as respectful as one could even hope.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

quote:

---

quote:

---

Ah. So, to you, butch is some sort of degrading term.

---

​

In so much as it can be used to denigrate a woman who doesn't meet society's standards for femininity, yes, it is. I realize that in the GLBT community it's a slang term for lesbians who act "mannish", if you will.

---

According to the merriam-webster dictionary (i.e., common usage) it means "very masculine in apperarance or manner". That's not just the GLBT use, that's what it means. It's not a denigration, it's a description. Also, it *is* relative to social standards. That's why it's not an insult - it's a *good* thing not to be a stereotype.You're arguing against the meaning of the word.

quote:

---

quote:

---

OOC, have you ever been to a gay club, or hung out with any lesbians or F2Ms?

---

​

I know a few lesbians, but they're not exactly into the whole gay scene. None of them use "butch" and "femme" like you're using. You're either butch, or you're femme. What you're wearing doesn't make a difference.

---

No lesbians or F2Ms that I know use butch or femme as an absolute term. None. It is a relative term. Also, if you're referencing social or sexual roles with the use of "butch" or "femme", very few members of the GLBT community use it in that context at all any more.

quote:

---

quote:

---

Odd, I've never been out of this solar system.

---

​

You are aware that there's an international community of mediveal/fantasy reenactors, right? That they don armor, shoot arrows, and swordfight as a matter of course, right?

---

That doesn't change either A) the standards of feminity and masculinity in this country, and B) the definition of the word.

quote:

---

quote:

---

Seriously, though, to remain appearing equally femmy in full armor and wielding a sword, you'd need to hold the sword like you're afraid of it, and wear low cut armor, have long hair flowing out the back, etc to compensate.

---

​

To you, I guess. I don't personally equate "femininity" with "weakness", not even in stereotype. Surely womanhood isn't that simplistic to you?

---

It's funny that you state that in the same post that you show a picture of... a woman who is in armor, but is wearing low-cut armor, holding herself without a forward posture, and has... long hair!You just proved my point, Crash: that if a woman doesn't compensate, she looks more butch in armor. And once again, I feel compelled to point out that it's not an insult to be described as butch - it means that you're not a stereotype, which is a great thing. [quote]

quote:

---

Would you consider a woman wearing a tuxedo still equally femmy?

​

This tuxedo? Or this one?

---

The left one. The right one is a feminine rip-off of a tuxedo. It's the equivalent of wearing low-cut armor to try and make a woman still look feminine (which the woman in the picture in question distinctly is not wearing).

quote:

---

quote:

---

Since when is "aggressiveness" considered a feminine trait anywhere in the US?

---

​

Like I said, in Minnesota, women are assertive, especially to service personel.

---

I seriously doubt if you polled Minnesotans and asked "Is aggressiveness (A) a masculine trait, (B) a feminine trait, or (C) neither", you'd get the vast majority saying (A). Remember, this is the country where as many as 71% of Americans in some parts of the country answered yes to the statement "The father of the family must be the master in his own house." (the average was 49%).

quote:

---

No, that's always been the point of the debate. Is a woman who wears armor most likely gay? Not on Planet Earth, or any other. Maybe in your world, though.

---

No, that's not the point of the debate. The point of the debate is whether a woman who looks like *that* most likely gay. And I don't see any crowds in the background or indications that it was a "for show" event. [quote][quote]Just a second ago you were arguing that elaborate, ornate armor is feminine.

quote:

---

And I still am.

---

Ok, then, please answer the question: Were the Romans flaming? Do modern Americans even consider the elaborate armor decor of roman legionaries and gladiators feminine?

quote:

---

But you're trying to imply that only a gay man would wear ornate clothing, or that only a lesbian would wear armor.

---

Wrong. Not "only". If we operated on guarantees of sexuality, no GLBTs would ever hook up. But there are indicators. A deliberately masculine appearance or social role (such as a hardened warrior) is a good one.

Yours and M-W's, maybe. My argument is consistent with the meaning of the word as it is used around me. Well, that's 180 degrees from my experience. My wife's friend is a femme lesbian. Not in a million years would anybody call her "butch", not even in camo pants and a bandolier. Oh, I see. You believe that the woman in the picture is American? Ah, so armor doesn't automatically make you mannish, then? Proves my point. The elf archer is as feminine as that girl in the leather. It's mind-boggling to me that you can't see it, and that you precieve that difference as implying lesbianism on the part of the elf. What is this, argument from imaginary evidence? Sure. In my experience, which includes meeting many women in a variety of armors - some sexy ren-fest type armor, some functional metal plate, some in modern hockey armor - women who wear that armor are never gay.What's your experience with women in armor? Why would they be? Well, we're back to where we started, then. Let me ask you again - what is your experience with women fighters that leads you to believe that the majority of them are homosexual?

crashfrog responds to me:

quote:

---

What I find hard to believe is that you of all people have offered nothing but your own rudely-phrased incredulity to suggest why my interpretation is in error.

---

Um, since you never seem to use that term in any other way, to find you claiming that you really meant "festive" rings hollow. I just did a search for your name and the word "gay" and the result was a litany of posts going all the way back to March of this year and not once did you use "gay" to mean anything except homosexual.

quote:

---

Again, why do you think Brian was referring to sexual orientation in his use of the word "gay"?

---

Because except for the song, "Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas," nobody under the age of 50 uses the word "gay" except to refer to sexual orientation, really.And sure enough, Brian has agreed...he did mean sexual orientation.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Now I'm confused. I never claimed the knight was "gay", in any sense of the word. I merely said that "festive knight" was a reasonable interpretation of the phrase "gay knight". Now you think I didn't mean that at all? I don't understand. Ah, but in the context of chivalrous, festooned knights, I use "gay" to mean "festive" 100% of the time.I'm curious why you were puzzled by what I meant by "gay" given that I told you exactly what I thought he meant by it. Can you explain your reasoning here? What does my word use in other threads have to do with the possibility that Brian didn't mean gay in the sense that you thought it did? Well, unless they're talking like they're over 50, on purpose. Surely you believe that a person can adopt an unusual or archaic mode of speech? Especially if they're talking about something archaic, like knights who shoot bows? Well, obviously, he gets to decide what he meant. Nonetheless "gay knight" could as likely mean "laughing, chivalrous knight" as "homosexual knight" in a context of archaic modes of speech.[This message has been edited by crashfrog, 12-02-2003]

quote:

---

quote:

---

the fact that you're offended by the words "dyke" and "fag" (and even brought them up as examples of offensive words) indicates that you are not.

---

​

Ri-i-i-i-ight.

​

Because "dyke" and "fag" have never been used as insults.

---

They are *not* insults in the GLBT community, we are reclaiming those words. We use them to each other, and a member of the GLBT community would be quite odd if they took offense at the use of them by a known GLBT-friendly person like Holmes.

quote:

---

Go see a black stand-up comedian playing to a predominantly black audience, and often you'll hear "nigger" flying around left and right and nobody is getting upset. Everybody understands the context and there is no animosity. Change the context though, and even a black person can't say it without being problematic.

---

Yes, some of them have been fairly bad about reclaimation - the point is that you don't get offended when others use it. That problem doesn't exist nearly as much in the GLBT community.

quote:

---

You can't seriously be saying that "dyke" and "fag" have no negative connotations. Do I really need to show you the studies that "fag" is one of the most commonly heard taunts among school-aged children?

---

They are used in a negative connotion. Holmes wasn't. And the key way to make it irrelevant is to not be offended by it, Rrhain. You're doing just the opposite.

quote:

---

Pennsylvania Newspaper Slams "Fag Forest"

---

You pick one line out of the entire article? The article was about the anti-gay tone of the article. They had a whopping sentence about the use of the word "fag", and didn't dwell on it at all.

quote:

---

And then there's this from GLAADower 105.1 FM New York:

---

Again, their problem is by far with the anti-gay content. GLAAD does occasionally denounce the use of the word (as with your other links), but virtually always when it's used in a distinctly anti-gay context. You generally end up finding "allies" dwelling on it more than GLBTs. And you'll almost never find a GLBT who has a problem with a person who isn't using it in an anti-gay context. Holmes distinctly wasn't using it in an anti-gay context.

quote:

---

Are you telling me that GLAAD isn't representative of any gay people?

---

On this issue, not the majority. We know that many people use it hatefully. But the majority realize that trying to stop people from using such terms, or being offended by such words, is the ideal way to make the problem worse. The best way is to reclaim. And we *do* use those words.

quote:

---

What makes you think I'm not gay?

---

I'll say it again: You're hung up on the words. You try too hard.By the way, Rrhain, that style of "what makes you think..." argument that you love to drag out gets old after a while. None of us are attacking you personally - why do you have to keep dragging yourself into the conversation?

quote:

---

quote:

---

In case you're not able to see, she is not wearing just a tiny bit of armor, she's covered in heavy armor plating.

---

​

Yes, I know.

---

You do? Then why did you say:

quote:

---

There's a reason that the male knights are dressed to the eyebrows in armor while the female warriors seem never to be able to scrape together enough cash to afford something more than a couple of solid metal pasties and a chain loincloth...and the fact that she's at least a C cup.

---

?

quote:

---

The point still remains. She's a character from a fantasy picture. She most likely was not drawn to appeal to lesbians but rather to straight, teenaged boys.

---

I'm not talking about who she was drawn to appeal to. I'm talking about that if I ran into such a woman, I would give her better odds of being a lesbian than being straight (unless it was in a "costume" context as opposed to a reality context, which the picture does not appear indicative of).

quote:

---

And why are you offended by the words "dyke" and "fag"?

​

Because when they are usually used, they are not meant kindly. Not even among gay people.

---

Not true. I once had a girl living with me who liked to jokingly sing "I'm a dyke, I'm a dyke, I'm a dyke dyke dyke..." (to the tune of... oh, what's that song they play when they start horse races...) when she was looking particularly butch before going out.

quote:

---

Oh, the leading of the Pride parade by Dykes on Bikes receives rounds of applause,

---

And why do you think they call it "Dykes on Bikes"... to insult themselves?Anyway, I'm off to dinner. Chat later!------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

Ok, this off topic discussion has gone on now for over 30 posts. Brian has explained what he meant, Crash is now defending what he thought Brian meant, Rrhain is arguing with everyone. Rei, the only one who might have a legitimate beef with the whole issue, has pointed out at the beginning that she didn't but is now arguing with Crash over semantics. I think it's close down time.------------------
AdminAsgara
Queen of the Universe