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Author Topic:   True Freedom
Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 181 of 300 (345749)
09-01-2006 1:55 PM


In defense of Kantian ethics (response to Sartre's critique in Existentialism
In Existentialism Sartre attempts to reason that Kantian ethics are inadequate to the following real life example:
p28-30
quote:
His father was on bad terms with his mother, and, moreover, was inclined to be a collaborationist; his older brother had been killed in the German offensive of 1940, and the young man, with somewhat immature but generous feelings, wanted to avenge him. His mother lived alone with him, very much upset by the half-treason of her older son; the boy was her only consolation.
The boy was faced with the choice of leaving for England and joining the Free French Forces-tht is, leaving his mother behind-or remaining with his mother and helping her carry on....................... On the one hand, an ethics of sympathy, of personal devotion; on the other, a broader ethics, but one whose efficacy was dubious. He had to choose between the two. Who could help him choose? Christian doctrine says, "Be charitable, love your neighbor, take the more rugged path, etc., etc." But which is the more rugged path?.............Who can decide a priori? Nobody. No book of ethics can tell him. The Kantian ethics says, "Never treat any person as a means, but as an end." Very well, if I stay with my mother, I'll treat her as an end and not as a means; but by virtue of this very fact, I'm running the risk of treating the people around me who are fighting, as means; and, conversely, if I go to join those who are fighting, I'll b treating them as an end, and by doing that, I run the risk of treating my mother as a means.
Firstly he asserts that the Christian doctrine can not resolve this moral dilemma but it surely can.
The young man wants vengeance but the Christian doctrine says to "Turn the other cheek", and to "love thy enemy". Fighting in a war stands in contrast to "love thy enemy" and fighting for retribution surely stands in contrast to "Turn the other cheek".
He then goes on to claim that Kantian ethics do not resolve this moral dilemma.
He says if the boy stays with his mother he will be treating her as an end but if he doesn't go fight in the war he will be treating those fighting as means.
Sartre does not realize that when one fights and kills other human beings for any reason, they are being treated as means.
This decison could have been made a priori though obviously not fully a priori because aposteriori or imperical(experience) knowledge precedes a priori knowledge.
Sartre harbored misunderstandings of the christian doctrine and of Kantian ethics itself, or at least the reality of war and the tragedy that it is BECAUSE men are not being treated as human beings but as means.

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by Omnivorous, posted 09-01-2006 11:00 PM Trump won has replied
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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 182 of 300 (345751)
09-01-2006 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by RAZD
08-31-2006 8:55 PM


Re: good essay
Walden is a great example for freedom and has some of the essence of the OP. I was telling Prophex this the other day!
nice post

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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 183 of 300 (345752)
09-01-2006 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by Archer Opteryx
09-01-2006 1:42 PM


Re: Hume the Nice Guy
It's common knowledge, really. Widely regarded as the nice guy of philosophy.
I will quote sources from my collection when I get home for you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-01-2006 1:42 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
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CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 184 of 300 (345787)
09-01-2006 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Trump won
09-01-2006 1:07 PM


Re: Dear less advantaged men and women of this board.
It funny how you can waxy all day about various philosophical and ontological concern but cannot answer simple questions as put forward by Schraf, myself and others.
Is it just the fact that you don't practice what you preach (well recycle really) and are unable to answer that prevents your response?
Don't be surprised if people dismiss you as a bullshitter if you are unable to answer such "trite" questions.
ikabod writes:
clearly he has
1. never had to live with out money because he has none or no one to give him some
2. he has never had to work to 12 days to earn enough money for one poor meal
3.he has never hunted rubbish heaps for rags to wear .
4.he has never suffered alone
5.he demands of god his own vision and purpose , with no need to conform ore follow .
is all this ultra harsh ... i think not if one can spend time debating Kant or whoever is this weeks topics flavour , can spend time working out where best to move to to be a music super star , then one can look at the places in this world where it is ugly and mean and people struggle to survive with out the time to consider the bright shinning theroies on the purpose of life ..
That post seems to have hit the nail on the hit. MOO I take it your non-answer means you sponge off your father while you enjoy the privilege of having hours to sit and ponder your great message.

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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3597 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 185 of 300 (345788)
09-01-2006 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Trump won
09-01-2006 2:00 PM


Re: Hume the Nice Guy
No need to prove anything, thanks. It's obviously a reference to Hume's standing as an enfant terrible. I just thought you might be quoting someone in particular.

Archer
All species are transitional.

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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3977
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 186 of 300 (345819)
09-01-2006 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Trump won
09-01-2006 2:00 PM


Re: Hume the Nice Guy
mess writes:
It's common knowledge, really. Widely regarded as the nice guy of philosophy.
Common knowledge among the privileged Western elite, perhaps, but like most common knowledge, somewhat wrong.
For example, Rousseau didn't think Hume was such a nice guy.

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Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2512 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 187 of 300 (345823)
09-01-2006 6:53 PM


more lyrics, more freedom
another take on freedom, this time coming from The Who.
I'm Free, The Who writes:
I'M FREE-I'm free,
And freedom tastes of reality,
I'm free-I'm free,
AN' I'm waiting for you to follow me.
If I told you what it takes
to reach the highest high,
You'd laugh and say 'nothing's that simple'
But you've been told many times before
Messiahs pointed to the door
And no one had the guts to leave the temple!
I'm free-I'm free
And freedom tastes of reality
I'm free-I'm free
And I'm waiting for you to follow me.
Chorus:
How can we follow?
How can we follow?

All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

Replies to this message:
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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 188 of 300 (345845)
09-01-2006 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Omnivorous
09-01-2006 6:42 PM


Re: Hume the Nice Guy
Yeah, they had a falling out. I guess it is better to be safe then sorry when generalizing knowledge known.

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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 189 of 300 (345846)
09-01-2006 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by Trump won
09-01-2006 8:48 PM


Re: Hume the Nice Guy
Dear kuresu,
Did you see my request?

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Replies to this message:
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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 190 of 300 (345848)
09-01-2006 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by CK
09-01-2006 4:22 PM


Re: Dear less advantaged men and women of this board.
quote:
It funny how you can waxy all day about various philosophical and ontological concern but cannot answer simple questions as put forward by Schraf, myself and others.
Key word: simple.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by CK, posted 09-01-2006 4:22 PM CK has not replied

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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2512 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 191 of 300 (345857)
09-01-2006 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Trump won
09-01-2006 8:49 PM


Request??
I don't think so.

All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Trump won, posted 09-01-2006 8:49 PM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 192 of 300 (345858)
09-01-2006 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by kuresu
09-01-2006 9:24 PM


Re: Request??
Message 178

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joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 193 of 300 (345860)
09-01-2006 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by RAZD
08-31-2006 8:55 PM


Re: good essay
Thanks, and it's really cool that you thought about the topic on your trip.
I agree with the concept of the canoe, everything affecting the course of life, right?
Yeah, those are the buddhist teachings, also Christian, and many other religions most likely for obvious reasons.

This message is a reply to:
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joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 194 of 300 (345862)
09-01-2006 9:32 PM


What does MOO mean?!?!?!? Saw it twice now.

Replies to this message:
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joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 195 of 300 (345863)
09-01-2006 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by CK
09-01-2006 4:39 AM


Re: Dear less advantaged men and women of this board.
quote:
it's quite laughable how you talk about confirmity and then quote Jesus.
Why?
Read up friend.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by CK, posted 09-01-2006 4:39 AM CK has not replied

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