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Author Topic:   Why Atheists don't believe
igor_the_hero
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 310 (311188)
05-11-2006 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Funkaloyd
05-11-2006 10:29 AM


Bad Response
i don't believe in god because i hate him. plus i like how atheism lets me kill people and stuff. moral responsibility blowz.

I am sorry to say it, but that has got to be the worst reason I have ever heard. At least the other guys are doing it for lack of proof. You are being an atheist out of hatred. How can you hate something you don't believe in?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Funkaloyd, posted 05-11-2006 10:29 AM Funkaloyd has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Coragyps, posted 05-11-2006 9:00 PM igor_the_hero has not yet responded
 Message 18 by nwr, posted 05-11-2006 9:02 PM igor_the_hero has not yet responded
 Message 20 by Chiroptera, posted 05-11-2006 9:26 PM igor_the_hero has responded

Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5388
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 17 of 310 (311193)
05-11-2006 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by igor_the_hero
05-11-2006 8:50 PM


Re: Bad Response
Igor - think sarcasm.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by igor_the_hero, posted 05-11-2006 8:50 PM igor_the_hero has not yet responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5585
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 18 of 310 (311195)
05-11-2006 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by igor_the_hero
05-11-2006 8:50 PM


Re: Bad Response
I'm sure Funkaloyd was making a joke. Have you heard of irony?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by igor_the_hero, posted 05-11-2006 8:50 PM igor_the_hero has not yet responded

Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5388
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 19 of 310 (311201)
05-11-2006 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
05-11-2006 8:24 AM


RR - I, too, gave up a belief in anything "divine," except possibly a very bizarre actor/actress that hung out with Andy Warhol, because of lack of any evidence whatsoever for any such species. And I started as a missionary kid, so I was well exposed to the teachings: I just grew to a point where I saw them all as fabrications.

And I'm tempted to ask you in return an old question: Why do you believe in only one flavor of the devine? There are several thousand dieties to pick from - Coyote, Maui, Thor, Eris, Ra.....and we atheists just take one (three??) more off the list than you Christians do.

I believe quite a few things with minimal to no evidence, but I go along with what a couple of folks have pointed out - if it gets important, I'm liable to go look for some.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by riVeRraT, posted 05-11-2006 8:24 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by riVeRraT, posted 05-12-2006 8:28 AM Coragyps has responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6616
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 20 of 310 (311205)
05-11-2006 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by igor_the_hero
05-11-2006 8:50 PM


Re: Bad Response
Igor, as everyone else stated, Funk's reply is a satire on many Christians' claims about the motivations of atheists. Many Christians have claimed that atheists choose to reject God because they hate him, and to justify their sinful lifestyles.

I'm glad to see that you are not in that camp.


"Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure."
-- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by igor_the_hero, posted 05-11-2006 8:50 PM igor_the_hero has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by igor_the_hero, posted 05-11-2006 9:34 PM Chiroptera has not yet responded

igor_the_hero
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 310 (311212)
05-11-2006 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Chiroptera
05-11-2006 9:26 PM


Re: Bad Response
My bad. It is hard to tell when someone is being sarcastic when you can't hear their tone of voice.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Chiroptera, posted 05-11-2006 9:26 PM Chiroptera has not yet responded

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 82 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 22 of 310 (311355)
05-12-2006 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Coragyps
05-11-2006 9:13 PM


Why I believe
If there was a God, and it was the Christian one, wouldn't you want to know Him? Wouldn't you want some kind of evidence?

I guess I will put down my testimony again, so that you can understand why I believe, because I didn't know what to believe for so many years.

I was raised catholic, but I quite believing when I was 8. The nun was teaching us how to pray, showed us the our Father, and the hail Mary... I read the bible before the our Father, and it says this is how Jesus said we should pray. Fine Jesus is the Son of God, this is the good book, makes sense.

I raised my hand and asked where in the bible is the Hail Mary? I got yelled at, and threatened by the nun. We aren't supposed to worship idols, so what gives? I got very frustrated, and could never sit in a church without getting angry, I always thought, what a bunch of BS.

But then ff 18 years later, I had my first child. I don't know, it's all explainable through science, but there was something that resounded in me that just was amazed at it all. It was one of those moments when you start thinking, why heck are we all here? Why do we feel such feelings, and why can we even ask ourselves these questions.

So I casually started reading the bible. Just informing myself, and then comparing what it said to real life. A lot of it started making sense. But a lot of it, I still didn't understand.

People in catholic church will pray, Father, Son, Holy Spirit. But ask them, what is the Holy Spirit? I bet you 9 out of 10 will not really know.

About 8 years after my child was born, I stood up in a church, and said I accept Jesus by faith, and I asked Him to come into my heart. But nothing changed, I didn't really feel anything, or if I did, I wasn't aware, because I still had too much of the world in me.

About another 6 years go by, and while in a trip to Puerto Rico, I had 3 different complete strangers all pray for me to be a spiritual leader of the family. I came back from the trip, and a someone I know asked me if I was Christian, and if I had a church. She invited me to her church. The church is 10 mins from my house, and I drove past it for 10 years,and I never knew it was a church, because there is no sign that says church, just child care.

So I went. They were playing different music, and everyone seemed free there. It wasn't all stuffy like a catholic church, but people weren't falling on the ground like some other churches I went to. But anyway, at that moment, I felt something. It was like electricity going through my body. It was an incredible feeling of love. They prayed for me there, said I should be a spiritual leader of my family.

Well, I thought I was just manifesting some kind of feelings on my own, but I did like the music, and I went and bought some cd's of it, and started listening to it. Well the feeling never went away, and a lot of thoughts started coming into my head, as though God was talking to me, for the next two weeks.

There was a change in me. A mental change, and everyone I knew reported a physical change. Mind you, I was a fairly happy person before, it's my nature to be happy all the time. Every single person I meet, who knew me before, said I looked ten years younger.

I stopped drinking ( I didn't drink that much anyway) and smoking pot (I smoked about twice a month) without even realizing it. A whole month had gone by, and I realized I had no urge.

I felt the Lord speak to me, and He told me that He created me, and that the spirit of truth would reside in me, and that no-one would be able to lie to me any more. It has been true so far, as long as I focus on God, and not myself, I am not as gullible anymore. I was gullible because I was a nice person, too nice to people.

I also started playing keyboards for the church, something I thought would always be a way for me to get to know God, to play music for Him. When I was jamming in my quiet time my whole life, I would talk to Him "if He was there" or I was talking to myself.

All the other churches I went to, when I told them that I played keyboards, I always got the same response "that's nice". But within weeks, I was on the worship team, and now I am the leader.

There are way too many "coincidences" for me to list here, and explain with enough detail so you could understand. There was way too much revelation and wisdom that comes with it. I know it's all subjective, but when you start to calculate odds, and you question yourself, and check yourself to see that your not going crazy, it all starts to add up to something. Couple that with what I felt, which was a real feeling, it was overwhelming.

I still feel that to this day, and I believe it to be the Holy Spirit. I am constantly testing it, and all the goes with it. I really want to make sure it's not just in my head. I have explained experiences in these forums where the experiences of people around me have paralleled my own, so it's not just me.

So the day I felt this, is either the day I went crazy, or the day I got a little taste of God. That's why I believe.

It's funny, the atheist's here don't believe because of lack of evidence. They want a sign first, then they will believe. But that's not the way it works. If you seriously want to know God, then you have to ask Him into your heart, and mean it. It might take years before you get a viable sign, so be patient. But you'll know it's Him when it happens, just like you know that 2+2=4. It's truth and love, feelings you are very familiar with, you can't miss it.

The good thing, is that everyone here I come into contact with, is smart. That gives you the ability to weed out what isn't Him.

If you guys can believe in love, then you can believe in God.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Coragyps, posted 05-11-2006 9:13 PM Coragyps has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by CK, posted 05-12-2006 9:15 AM riVeRraT has responded
 Message 24 by iano, posted 05-12-2006 9:27 AM riVeRraT has not yet responded
 Message 27 by EZscience, posted 05-12-2006 11:25 AM riVeRraT has responded
 Message 31 by Coragyps, posted 05-12-2006 1:30 PM riVeRraT has not yet responded

CK
Member (Idle past 2290 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 23 of 310 (311362)
05-12-2006 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by riVeRraT
05-12-2006 8:28 AM


Why I have a disbelief
quote:
If there was a God, and it was the Christian one, wouldn't you want to know Him? Wouldn't you want some kind of evidence?

You are getting down to the crux here - there are 1000s of them out there ("gods") and we are all busy people. It's difficult for christians to understand this but their guy doesn't stand out in the crowd - they are pretty much of a muchness.

quote:
It's funny, the atheist's here don't believe because of lack of evidence. They want a sign first, then they will believe. But that's not the way it works. If you seriously want to know God, then you have to ask Him into your heart, and mean it. It might take years before you get a viable sign, so be patient. But you'll know it's Him when it happens, just like you know that 2+2=4. It's truth and love, feelings you are very familiar with, you can't miss it.

This is another important point - I don't want to know him, it's not a seriously concept for me (and i guess many other atheists), not something I spend too much time thinking about. This is not intended as an insult but from my perspective it comes across is like asking us to open our heart to Captain America or Superman. I know it sounds insulting but honestly it's not meant to be, I'm just trying to explain the mindset I have.

There are many people who have a disbelief, not because they have seriously considered the matter but because they don't care. Belief is not the default state.

This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 12-May-2006 09:26 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by riVeRraT, posted 05-12-2006 8:28 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by riVeRraT, posted 05-15-2006 6:55 AM CK has responded

iano
Member (Idle past 103 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 24 of 310 (311363)
05-12-2006 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by riVeRraT
05-12-2006 8:28 AM


Re: Why I believe
It's truth and love, feelings you are very familiar with, you can't miss it.

I'm reading why folk here don't believe and the word 'evidence' comes up again and again. Whilst many say empirical evidence I suspect that they wouldn't be so dogmatic about it in reality. Any form of evidence which they found compelling would likely do.

For those who are that little bit closer and who perhaps find themselves holding to an atheist position because they find themselves wandering around a spiritual roundabout - not knowing which turn off is the right one - then this sentence is worth highlighting.

The only way to know God exists for sure is to be sure he exists. The evidence (in whichever form it arrives) must be, as rR says - unmissable. Otherwise it is probably the wrong turn. And the evidence only has to be good enough for you.

Nice testimony rR.

This message has been edited by iano, 12-May-2006 02:38 PM


This message is a reply to:
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kongstad
Member (Idle past 1032 days)
Posts: 175
From: Copenhagen, Denmark
Joined: 02-24-2004


Message 25 of 310 (311379)
05-12-2006 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
05-11-2006 8:24 AM


rr writes:

1. Why don't you believe in the divine?

I have no reason to believe in the divine.

2. Do you believe in anything without evidence?

Sure, lots of things

/Søren


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by riVeRraT, posted 05-11-2006 8:24 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by riVeRraT, posted 05-15-2006 6:56 AM kongstad has responded

GDR
Member
Posts: 4814
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 26 of 310 (311380)
05-12-2006 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by NosyNed
05-11-2006 1:27 PM


NosyNed writes:

The step to atheism is a "leap of faith" in that there is no evidence that can prove it is correct. It is just where all the evidence that does exist points to.

Nice to see an Atheist that will agree that it requires a "leap of faith" in the same way that Theism does.

It is interesting though how two people can look at the same evidence and come to diametrically opposed conclusions. I look at what we know and at what we can observe and come to the conclusion that the evidence points to intelligence behind our existance but, as you said, it is a "leap of faith".

This message has been edited by GDR, 05-12-2006 07:43 AM


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by NosyNed, posted 05-11-2006 1:27 PM NosyNed has not yet responded

  
EZscience
Member (Idle past 3316 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 27 of 310 (311395)
05-12-2006 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by riVeRraT
05-12-2006 8:28 AM


Re: Why I believe
rR writes:

If you guys can believe in love, then you can believe in God.

But is there any reason to 'believe' in love, either?
Isn't 'love' simply an anthropomorphic and romantic glorification of something very basic and biological?
Isn't it just a subjective manifestation of feelings that are a product of natural selection favoring the urge to propagate genes?

But nice narrative. I commend you one your honesty and openness in recounting the development of your faith. I found it interesting. It certainly touched Iano, but that was predictable.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by riVeRraT, posted 05-12-2006 8:28 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by riVeRraT, posted 05-15-2006 7:22 AM EZscience has responded

sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 310 (311396)
05-12-2006 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
05-11-2006 8:24 AM


riVeRrat

1. Why don't you believe in the divine?

Firstly I have never heard an explanation of the divine that did not involve a belief first evidence second. This is precisely the situation we require of a person to avoid critical thinking. Having set the brain to believe we then proceed to "find" evidence to support the already accepted result. Therefore we will be forced by the pre-existing belief to ignore, diminish, or reintepret the importance of disconfirming results against the beleif.Hence the vast array of endless religious apologetics.

2. Do you believe in anything without evidence?

Not that I am aware of. I believe in love which is something I can acquire evidence of since I define love as those things to which I have a personal emotional tie with. There is,however, a love seperate from the one that involves our own feelings and need to placate our emotional well being. The love of nature and the sense of relaxation that it has for me.There is love that concerns the well being of others including strangers.There is love of watching your children as they grow up and you grow old, a kind of continuity that I find special.
I believe in community and the neccesity of having a stable atmosphere that allows us to be at ease and unafraid of others.All of these are presented with evidence though so perhaps This does not answer the question .

That said there is nothing that comes to mind that require a divine entity to be in order for such feelings to exist since these are ameanble to more mundane but no less wonderous explanations.


Dear Mrs Chown, Ignore your son's attempts to teach you physics. Physics isn't the most important thing. Love is.

Best wishes, Richard Feynman.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by riVeRraT, posted 05-11-2006 8:24 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by robinrohan, posted 05-12-2006 12:03 PM sidelined has responded
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 310 (311405)
05-12-2006 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by sidelined
05-12-2006 11:32 AM


Not that I am aware of.

You accept nothing on authority?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by sidelined, posted 05-12-2006 11:32 AM sidelined has responded

Replies to this message:
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sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 310 (311407)
05-12-2006 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by robinrohan
05-12-2006 12:03 PM


robinrohan

Only if it is accompanied by a compelling arguement involving either a great evidentiary and logical reasoning or a weapon bigger than any in my arsenal.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by robinrohan, posted 05-12-2006 12:03 PM robinrohan has responded

Replies to this message:
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